ScoopTalk: Thoughts on a clunker in Iowa

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  • Fab5 says:

    Loved the story about how you chose the location and the lighting, great stuff! Can’t wait to see where you end up sitting for the next ScoopTalk!!!

  • Laffy says:

    My guess is Geoff will “forget” this game when I bring up how Jordy won;t see much time next year because he is out of his league.

  • Chet says:

    When a player ‘who shall not be named’ returned to the lineup it was like sinking everyone’s feet into concrete. The Hoosiers went from a crisp passing, fast running team to a plodding collection of individuals.

  • Hoosier Clarion says:

    My guess is VJ’s major is not Chemistry.

  • real iu fan says:

    Does anyone on IU’s coaching staff teach defense or blocking out? Pathetic after nearly 4 years on the job. Good players with mediocre coaches will not change much.

  • iulongago says:

    They won’t win the NCAA Championship this year but they will win 9 games in the Big Ten, make the tournament, and hopefully win 1 game there. Remember, this team was projected as one of the last into the NCAA or going to the NIT. IU has been exposed all year when temas with quick guards put pressure on the ball. Hulls isn’t quick enough and struggles against that type of pressure. He’ll find his home at 2 when Yogi plays at 1. The rebounding is a big concern as is the ‘will’ to rebound. Iowa had it and IU didn’t.

  • Geoff says:

    HC – good one…

    Laffy – of course I’ll remember these types of games. And I’ve already said that if I were the coach it would be a tough call. The argument I am making, and that you fail to recognize for some reason no matter how many times I state it, is that it won’t be that tough a call for Crean. He has a senior leader who has played quite well over the entire course of a 20+ win season. Every team and every player has clunkers. Hulls was obviously part of the problem tonight, but that was a whole team of grossness. Hulls has had FAR MORE good games than bad ones and IU has had FAR MORE wins than losses this year. Of course he has his limitations, and he won’t be as strong in some areas as Yogi, but he will have the respect of his team and his coach and a full understanding of the offense and defense. Yogi will be a freshman, a very helpful, and maybe at times dominant player next year, but still a freshman.

  • Geoff says:

    Real IU fan – I doubt it… They aren’t Bobby Knight, so I’m pretty sure they don’t teach those things.

    Once again you lack perspective. IU is actually overachieving on defense. They only have 3 guys who can be considered above average defenders – Dipo, Abell, and Zeller – and two of those are freshman. There are a couple more that are average, like Sheehey and Elston. Everyone else is either slightly below average or awful. The main thing here is just toughness and athletic ability, and those are two things that are difficult to coach up. Watford is a below average athlete and lacks toughness, same for Verdell. Hulls, Roth, and Pritch are all tough, but just not good enough athletes to be good individual defenders – good team defenders yes, but struggle when isolated.

    So with that being said I believe the coaching staff has actually done a very good job teaching team defense. There have definitely been times I have screamed at the TV about boxing out, but it’s been almost completely aimed at Watford and Jones.

    Here are their stats on the season:

    Opp ppg = 66/gm
    Opp fg% = 42.5%
    Opp 3-pt % = 33.3%
    Opp TO = 14/gm
    Rebounding diff = +3.5

    Do you think Coach K is decent at teaching defense? Right now IU is ranked 20 spots higher than Duke in Defensive Efficiency…

    With the addition of more athletes and better defenders next year this will all improve as well.

  • Rip says:

    Geoff in your world Zeller would be coming off the bench for Pritchard. Thankfully that isn’t how Crean coaches. If Yogi is a better PG than Hulls he will play over Hulls, if Hulls has all those qualities you continually state then he wouldn’t have numerous games each season where he doesn’t show up, he also is allegedly the ‘leader’ of this squad although its clear that he cannot motivate Watford or JonesIII. Again, if Hulls is the kind of kid you say he is then he’ll have no problem deferring to Yogi and possibly even coming off the bench for Yogi. I agree that Hulls should be given the starting position initially, but absolutely not once he falters and goes out there and doesn’t impact the game, IU has lost to the 4 worst teams in the B1G and IU is a combined 15-36 in the B1G with Hulls as the starting PG, I don’t think anyone in the program will mind Yogi taking the reigns. We already know what Hulls brings to the table: inconsistent offensive performances and NAIA level defense. Yogi is a McDonald’s All-American and an elite athlete.

  • Double Down says:

    Geoff, it sure is tough for those who have a deep-seeded axe to grind with CTC who can offer nothing but anecdotal evidence to counter actual stats. Nice post.

    We laid a horrible egg in Iowa City last night, but at the beginning of the season, if you told me we’d be 20-7 right now with wins over UK, OSU and Purdue, I’d take it everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

  • Rip says:

    DD- with that said then it means you would also take 3 losses to the worst 3 teams in the B1G, from a team that has the talent to beat OSU, UK….great logic.

  • Double Down says:

    Rip, nice strawman and you can’t imply logic that I didn’t make as part of my argument. Those 3 losses you mentioned were bad. No way around it. But this simply not a Top-10 team. IU was overachieving in the first half of the year and they’re regressing back to the mean in a tough conference. Those bad losses were offset by some really good ones. Ones, if you remember, we weren’t supposed to win at the time.

    For a team that many were still picking to be at the bottom of the conference at the start of the season, IU is having a successful season. Without blemish? Nope. But they don’t have the talent to be expected to cruise through the regular season.

    So, based on the talent level of this team, overall I’m happy with the way the season is going — even if I spent yesterday’s game smacking my forehead with such an awful effort.

  • Rip says:

    DD, I agree with your post. They don’t have top level talent. And when they don’t give top level effort they get beat, that’s why this team is frustrating. They play fine at home or when they are the underdogs, however they play awful when they are favored. At this point next week they won’t be ranked after they lose on the road to Minny.

  • Geoff says:

    Rip – listen I don’t know if you read much of what I write on here or not. I am going to assume you either haven’t been reading or haven’t been paying attention. In my world Pritch would not be starting over Zeller, because Zeller has a significantly greater impact on the game. Last year Pritch averaged 2.5 pts and 3.8 rebounds for a 12-20 team and played out of default because there was literally no one else on the roster capable.

    Hulls is averaging 12 and 3.5 assists for a 20-7 team whose deepest position is guard. Crean has showed us that he is the type of coach that will play experince over younger talent! If the difference in influence over the game isn’t percieved to be that great.

    I am not defending Hulls. I am stating the facts and looking at this from Crean’s perspective as far as i can follow it. I would also not be upset if Yogi was the starter or played more than Hulls. I just don’t see it happening.

    You also basically disqualified yourself from anyone taking you seriously when you brought up Hulls record in the last 3 years. You sound like you lack any perspective when you bring up our losses to B1G teams, even the bottom of the pack. Apparently B1G road games are now easy to win. When did that happen? OSU lost at Illinois… MSU lost at NW and Illinois…. UM lost at Iowa… UW lost to Iowa… How can that be tolerated by teams that are ranked in the top 15? Oh I remember now, because that’s just what happens to almost every team in college basketball.

    FSU beat UNC by 30 and then beat Duke at Cameron, but they’ve also lost to Princeton, Clemson, and BC…

    Kansas State beat both Baylor and Mizzou, but have lost to Oklahoma twice…

    The fact is that the top 25 is littered with teams with good wins and questionable losses.

    Most of those teams were good last year, and the year before, and have a culture of success with their current rosters. IU was 12-20 last year and no one on this team has experienced success at this level coming into the season. We added only one player of significance to last years roster.

    So yeah I expect this team to have some ups and downs. I have been surprised they haven’t had more slip-ups then what we’ve seen. I am thrilled that we are 12-0 outside of the conference. I am not resting on those accomplishments and I think we have a higher potential than losing 7 B1G games, but you have to keep things in perspective buddy.

    The only one lacking logic here is you.

  • Rip says:

    I’ve followed Crean’s entire coaching career. Here at IU he has not had the option of adjusting much of what you claim to be ‘his patterns.’ Check what Crean did at Marquette and you’ll see the type of team he is wanting to build. Crean wants guards who can get to the rim and create. He doesn’t use guards like Hulls. Dominic James, Wesley Matthews, Jerel McNeal are much more like Yogi Ferrel than they are like Jordan Hulls. He did use Travis Diener, who was drafted in the 2nd round and played 5 years in the NBA so you could maybe say Hulls is a poor man’s Diener. But do you see any of Crean’s future classes with a Hulls-esque guard in them? Nope, he doesn’t recruit those kind of kids. He will have no problem going to Yogi early and often and I am not completely against your argument as I am also a big Hulls fan, I just don’t think Jordy has actually done as much as everyone claims he has. Just as much as he is a victim of his circumstances(undertalented teams with a lot of losses) he is also a benefactor of them as well(playing time and opportunity). Hulls wouldn’t even be a starter or recruited at IU if IU was not gutted when he came out of HS.

  • Geoff says:

    Rip – I have argued the same exact point a couple times on here regarding Crean’s system and type of player he likes. We agree on that completely, I just don’t know how it applies next year with a freshman-senior scenario in the respect of who “starts”… Which is the context of which all of my Hulls posts have been made. I have stated that I can see a scenario where Hulls plays his way out of the line-up, but I don’t think anything will be handed to Yogi like it was to Zeller.

    Regardless of the circumstances that got Jordy to the point he’s at now, he is at the helm of a 20+ win team and has had personal success THIS year. He understands how to play, which makes up for his physical short-comings at this level. His numbers in the B1G are fairly close to his overall numbers, and he is able to hide within the scheme of IU’s defense by guarding the other teams weakest scorer.

    I just think CTC will find it difficult to sit his senior captain PG… All bets are off after next year, and I think talent will rule out. His allegiances to the first recruits will no longer be a concern.

  • Rip says:

    Yeah man, agreed. It is a storyline I’m looking forward to seeing play out. Currently I’m happy that the Jones, Pritch, Roth class will get to the Dance this year. And I’m hoping the Hulls, Elston, Watf core can experience tourney success before they leave. Yogi’s comments and anticipations are that he’ll be IU’s starting PG from Day 1. Which I guess, obviously, he’d have that thought regardless. And on his latest interview with InsidetheHall he mentioned that Crean told him as much. Yogi has been compared to Trey Burke and Burke would be the starter at IU right now no doubt. I know what you are saying about Crean finding it tough to shuffle things but when playing the more talented player and giving the program its best chance to win I don’t think he or Hulls will have a problem if Yogi ends up being the clear cut better option. Plus for recruits looking in it is never good for a coach to play an average senior over a stud frosh, HS kids don’t like seeing that. Anyway I think Yogi has a chance to be very good right away and if IU is going to take that next step it will be good for everyone if Yogi is the real deal. On a different topic, what are your thoughts on Ron Patterson, I think he is very good and can’t see him actually being the 131st best recruit in the nation, if there are 130 better players than him I’d be surprised.

  • Geoff says:

    Patterson is an interesting case. I think he is the odd man out next year, but becomes a very integral part by the middle of his soph season. I am hoping he can be patient. If Abell transfers then I could see him stepping up a little sooner. What happens if Roth and Creek get additional eligibility? Roth doesn’t take up a scholly, but he would eat up some bench minutes. Creek is a mystery, but if he’s completely healthy he is obviously a talent.

    I just think RP will have to be significantly better than Abell for him to see the floor, because they are fairly redundant pieces and RA will have a year of the system under his belt.

    Hulls, Yogi, Dipo, Abell, Roth, Creek, Sheehey, Etherington, and Hollowell could all be competing for minutes at the 1-3 spots with Patterson in his first year. That is a tough scenario for him.

    Year two he is only competing with Dipo for the starting role, and I think based on talent he jumps ahead of Abell and Etherington. The rotation is Sheehey and Patterson playing behind Yogi, Dipo, and Hollowell. By the time he’s a junior he is starting in a role similar to Dipo’s now – lock-down perimeter defender and #3 or 4 scoring option that plays a little bit of PG.


  • Rip says:

    I think the 10 guys who will actually play next year will be: Zell, Yogi, Watf, Ola, Hulls, Shee, Hollo, Hanner, Remy, Ron….Elston gets left out. Also, I wouldn’t be shocked though if Remy or Sheehey transferred this summer.

  • Rolla Hendrickson says:

    This transplanted Hoosier living in Georgia loves IU Basketball but is frustrated with the lack of desire put forth by Watford in many areas. Tall players who can shoot uncontested three-pointers on occasion are plentiful. Watford does not seem to like contact (in the Big Ten?), does not work on defense, needs to rebound, and has most of his lay-ups blocked. Anyone else agree?

  • hiensohn says:

    Agree,Rolla,in addition ,every time he makes that slow move to the basket,he has 3 defenders on him.Everyone knows he is going to shoot.I wish he would learn to drive the middle and kick it out.It seems to me we have had 3 or 4 brutally physical games in a row.I still think our team will benefit from non-big 10 officiating when we get to the tournament.These games are disgusting to watch,drives to the basket hackers everywhere and no calls.I’m not complaining about biased here ,just style of tremendously physical play.I don’t see it in any other conference.

  • Hoosier Clarion says:

    I think DE’s court time as a Senior will remain about the same as this year or increase a couple of minutes. I base that on him still showing improvement in developing a better game and being the most experienced big man. Watford is stuck in neutral and shows almost no progress developing and next year in contrast to this year there will be options to his minutes and Elston will be one of those options pushing CW to the bench when he is in one of his inconsistent, non-enegetic, underachieving performances. He is a wink link and next year Crean has options to remedy that. Yogi will win the PG job sometime but when Hulls is not sharing time at the point he will be sharing time at the 2G, lots, no way you can keep that outside marksmanship totally off the floor, especially if MR is gone. A great 1-2 combo, Yogi drivin and dishin and Hulls firing and scoring.

  • Geoff says:

    I agree HC, I think that Elstons minutes will be effected less than Watford’s… He is shaping up to be the biggest loser next year.

    Elston just brings more to the game at this point. He is a better shooter, a better defender, much tougher, and fundamentally pretty sound. He rebounds ok, but it’s not like Watford is a good rebounder… He’s had only 10 double digit rebounding games, and he’s 6’9″. His numbers have actually decreased since his FR year.

    Meanwhile Elston is healthy for the first time in his career and can finally show us his worth… In games he plays between 10-18 minutes he averages 6 pts and 3 rebs on 61% 3-pt shooting. He is starting to slow down a little when he catches the ball, which means his comfort level is rising. I think he stays and wants to see this thing through, especially with the promise and potential of next year’s team.

  • Hoosier Clarion says:

    Yah, “slow down” is the correct description for how he is seeing the game. I also believe as you that since he is now healthy he is maximizing his potential during practices. He will be most important next year to the young athletic big men coming with The Movement. I am guessing by your non comment on the topic you probably do not agree much with my thoughts on JH/YF scenario.

  • Geoff says:

    HC – it was more that I’ve just commented on that topic so much already. I guess I figured you knew where I stood. I definitely think Hulls will have to lose the starting PG role. I do think there will plenty of times when they are on the court together. I am always a fan of having good decision-makers on the floor, so I’d be a fan of the combo (as long as Yogi proves to be a good decision-maker).

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