Live discussion: North Carolina at Indiana

51 comments by   |   Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 9:51 pm EDT

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51 comments:
#1
Geoff
Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 11:16 PM EDT

Watford drives me batshit…

 
#2
Geoff
Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 11:26 PM EDT

Well Jay Williams is officially a moron… “isn’t Indiana supposed to be the slow, methodical half court team?”

Um, no… Aren’t you supposed to do some friggin research before you open your mouth on national TV?

 
#3
Hoosier Clarion
Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 11:41 PM EDT

Pleasing Sheehey shows up every game to play hard especially when CW takes a lasse-faire approach to competition. He soon needs to decide if he is going to be a senior leader on the #1 team in the nation or sell popcorn in the parking lot. WS should start regardless of Watford’s decision.

 
#4
Chet
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 12:05 AM EDT

For a guy that’s hoping to be a first round draft choice I don’t see any reason in the world why CWat should be starting over Sheehy.

He just isn’t doing it for me (not that I matter for anything). Sheehy plays like his life depends on it and he looks better every game. CWat looks like he is sleepwalking.

 
#5
chris K.
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 12:18 AM EDT

So why did everyone get on my case when I prayed that he entered the NBA draft after last season(as if he’d make a squad, but I could’ve cared less as long as he was out of our hair.)? NOW you wanna’ whine about how good he ISN’T. You shoulda’ recognized it then. We’ll see when Perea get’s into the mix, I think a real impass may result if Perea plays well. At all.

 
#6
William Sheehey
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 12:22 AM EDT

these haters can’t hold me back!

 
#7
Chet
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 12:22 AM EDT

I’d want Will on a flight line, in a fox hole, fighting insect invaders, you name it.

CWat, I’m not so sure. He’d do his best, I’m sure. Will would have that .357 in his sock and a stiletto in his vest (much as my wife and children would)90.

The great thing is….we have the option. This is a GREAT team.

 
#8
chris K.
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 12:24 AM EDT

I’ll give Wattford this: he’s been inconsistent. He HAS had big games, he just doesn’t have the athleticism that a 6’9″ forward needs to have at this level. He’s versatile, yes, he has range & can handle the ball well, but he lacks quckness, leaping ability, & strength. He’s had what, 5 dunks since he’s been at IU? 4? 3? I know, I knbow, he hit “the shot”. If only he could get, “the rebound”. or come up with “the block” a bit nmore often. anyway, he’s one of the original “Tommy Tikes”, so he ain’t leaving the rotation anytime soon.

 
#9
chris K.
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 12:29 AM EDT

Wow. This is kinda’ what I thought might happem, certainly what I’d hoped for. Now we’ve made it through to the suspensions being lifted unscathed. Now we will see what we really can be, starting with the Butler game. Ths sky is indeed now the limit.

 
#10
Geoff
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 12:35 AM EDT

UM still only team I see as a threat…

Didn’t do anything tonight to change that.

 
#11
Geoff
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 12:36 AM EDT

Duke has a chance to do what IU did last year – knock off 3 top 5 teams…

I think OSU wins though.

 
#12
Ron
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 12:37 AM EDT

what a team…….

 
#13
AWinAZ
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 12:37 AM EDT

You all are right…CWat is now CWhat? You just don’t know what #4 will show up. I profiled his disappearing act last year. The difference is that it doesn’t matter this year. He was a complete bust tonight. He’s the new Verdell Jones, it’s better when he isn’t on the floor. When his alter ego does show up he’s an asset.

Dear Harvard, YOU ARE/WERE RIGHT ABOUT HULLS. The kid has clearly improved each year in every dimension of his game. He’s also much, much better being the shooting guard with Yogi on the floor.

Also, remember when Olidipo started running point last year when Mr. Turnover went down? He’s the better for it & so is the team now.

And 1 more thing….let’s all be gracious winners. We’ve been through hell and back and need to quietly and methodically payback for what we went through from 2007 – 2011. Great teams prove it March, not November.

 
#14
Chet
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 12:40 AM EDT

chris k.,
CWat has been surrounded by better players IMHO. He will be a valuable player but, as an NBA prospect, he might have been better off leaving. Let’s wait and see, but he’s looking like a solid rebounder and a spot up shooter and that’s it. Everyone else can do SO much.

He’s a very valuable part of a bigger machine but, again IMHO, that’s his role.

 
#15
psych
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 12:44 AM EDT

That is exactly the kind of second half I expected out of our Hoosiers. What a dismantling. Granted, UNC is not that good this year (yet), but it was still a pleasure to watch.

 
#16
Chet
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 12:44 AM EDT

While he’ll never be considered, objectively, Jordy should be in the running for the Naismith Award.

 
#17
Mass Hoosier
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 12:53 AM EDT

Chris K, I felt the same about Watford last year and before. In fairness, I thought CWat has at least rebounded better this year. I also think he will contribute down the road. He just needs to let the game come to him. He has two dunks in two games. Impressive. HaHa. I think Yogi, Will and Hollowell are obviously going to take his minutes.

 
#18
chris K.
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 1:00 AM EDT

Wait till’ you see Perea. I think OSU will be out biggest challenge. Michigan is good too, & let’s see how good Minnesota & Illinos are as well.

 
#19
AWinAZ
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 1:00 AM EDT

Dramatically different era but fun to compare….

Alford very slight edge over Hulls, but Hulls rebounds, handles the ball better.
Keith Smart > Yogi at this point anyway. Plus he hit “the shot”.
Zeller >> Dean Garrett.
Olidipo >> Ricky Calloway or Steve Eyl.
CWhat = Daryl Thomas, although Sheehey > Daryl Thomas.
2012 bench >> 1987 bench.

 
#20
Geoff
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 1:05 AM EDT

…And Perea.

He is just the only guy on the team who stops the “flow”

CWat is where our offense goes to die right now. I hope that changes.

I just doubt that as a senior he is going to accept the role we need him to fill. Rebounder, spot up shooter, occasional post presence. Other than that, if you’re not wide open on the catch… MOVE THE BALL WAT!!!

 
#21
Geoff
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 1:07 AM EDT

In game coaching: Knight >> Crean

Cures a lot of ills.

 
#22
Geoff
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 1:15 AM EDT

Mike Davis and TX Southern in double OT vs Colorado…. Entertaining… Anyone else watching this?

 
#23
AWinAZ
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 1:16 AM EDT

I think you are right Geoff with the coaching comparison when it comes to game strategy & the teaching of fundamentals. I give Crean the strong edge on recruiting, sheer perserverance and retention. I was worried Roy would expose us in some way tonight, but we’ll have to leave that to Izzo, again.

Stepping back, to beat us, a team has to make it a half-court game and play physical in a “let ‘em play” style officiated game. Have to make us play defense for 25 – 30 sec. per possession and limit our possessions. Another proven way is to book Teddy Valentine (aka Mr. Show-you-up) to ref the game.

 
#24
AWinAZ
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 1:32 AM EDT

The box score tonight is just insane…

Starters, including CWhat?, 17 assists & 3 TOs. CWhat had 2 of those 3, matching his pt. total.
10 total TOs, but 6 steals & 6 blocks, to offset them.
21 total assists.
Hulls had 13pts, 8 RB, & 7 assists, no TOs!
Zeller had 19 pts, 7 RB, 2 blocks.
Yogi with only 2 pts, but 5 assists & 1 TO!
Sheehey & Olidipo with 19 pts. each.

Wow….I’ll take this against all cupcakes we play let alone UNC.

 
#25
TsaoTsuG
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 1:37 AM EDT

We need to be fair with CWat. Bad game, he missed a couple of shots and was conscious of national TV on ESPN. The best They still play with the intensity of last year when they knew if they went down on their knees they would be laughed at.In the process they developed a team brotherhood that took them to the level of very good team and became the motor for this team. When Watford went through the roughs, they brought him back; when VJ was ridiculed, they said you’re one of us; when Hulls was questioned, they pointed at him as their heart.

What I love about this team is they seem to still have that heart, that intensity, and the brotherhood that forged this team. Watford is one of them…that’s how they see it. He fails, they fail. He hurts, they hurt. They’ll be there for him at practice tomorrow.

Who they are in this respect, we should be. Yet, from the reading tonight it seems we either fail to understand what it is that puts them near a great future or we don’t understand what’s goes into the play of putting together a team of Hoosiers and making it a Hoosier team.

Just had to say that.

 
#26
Geoff
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 1:39 AM EDT

Favorite stat of the night:

Hulls & Yogi – 14 assists, 1 TO

Surprising stat of the night:

Yogi & Watford – 1-15 FG in a 24 point win

 
#27
TsaoTsuG
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 1:40 AM EDT

Mass, yours is a good Hoosier statement. Fair.

 
#28
TsaoTsuG
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 1:52 AM EDT

Chris…you gotta believe in people, they make up the character of a team. Perea, when he comes back, will be a lot like Oladipo last year. He’ll have moments like a Greek god of war and some like a bad shoe commercial. Same with Jurkin. But, they’ll have the best teachers you could give them, their teamates, including Oladipo, Sheehey, Hulls and yes… Watford.

 
#29
AWinAZ
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 1:55 AM EDT

TTG, to your point, this will be yet another “teaching moment” for CWhat? I’m just glad to see Crean benched his rear after the lackadaisical TO. I strongly suspect he will lead the team in scoring in the coming 2 games against the nobodies which hopefully will help rebuild his confidence. I’ve never, ever questioned his ability. He has it on display a whopping 50% of the time. Perhaps baseball is his sport, because hitting .500 will get you in the Hall of Fame. Or maybe he should try the Elston jersey back on.

If he would just give us 8 – 10 pts & 8 boards a night, every night I’d stop bitching about him. That would be a solid contribution for this year’s team, but it won’t get him to the NBA but nor will his up-&-down efforts.

 
#30
Geoff
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 2:05 AM EDT

Hmmm… Do you really want a supremely confident Watford?

I’d prefer a Watford that understood his role and played within himself. He is currently the 5th best player on the team and I, for one, don’t want him trying to be “the man” after having a couple successful, yet meaningless, performances against creampuffs.

 
#31
TsaoTsuG
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 2:13 AM EDT

AZ, I partially agree. To be fair, I did notice his body language really went south at one point (probably at that turn over you mention and he came back looking my age). But yes. Crean has done an incredible job building a personality to this team and an attitude based on that personality. This team is like a battalion of the 82nd. Airborne that sense.

Crean knows their heads. I’m beginning to figure out he’s got an incredible feel for each of them. Probably because he’s pretty complex as an individual. And someone on that team (Crean plus someone who works with them day to day) does one hell of a job teaching…just plain teaching, a real gift in coaching. They seem to be better individually every day I see them.

They also have an incredible absence of selfishness. Beyond the norm, even for good teams. I’ve seen few teams like these guys that *enjoy* seeing somebody else finish the play.

 
#32 Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 2:26 AM EDT

Tsao, points for the Greek God of War line.

 
#33
Mass Hoosier
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 2:28 AM EDT

I agree, when CWat forces things he looks bad. When you have a team this talented, bad things will stand out even more. Bottom line, we don’t need that kind of play. If you are on the offensive side of any sport, you better be confident, get set and let it rip. Cody, Jordy, Will and Vic have that.” Fight, fight , fight.” I hope for Watford sake, that he is smart enough to help the team and enjoy his senior year. Just take what’s given Christian.

 
#34
TsaoTsuG
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 2:31 AM EDT

AZ, where I disagree is in what we really need from CW. We need him to work over the other team’s best inside player on defense and neutralize his existence. He did that fairly well tonight, when he was in. We need him to get boards…lots and lots of boards at both baskets. We need him to really block out under our defensive basket every time. We need him to push his man to the base line so he can’t drive on us and slip the ball off or pitch it out to an open three point shooter.

And, I do want him confident that he is a solid basketball player, an important part of this team and someone who we enjoy depending on.

Then, I’ll take 8-12 points per games, good passes, solid picks and screens and to take away a big guy from the other team because he can hit a couple of threes. Intensity. But, I’m not concerned with his average at his offensive game on his fifth (or whatever) game of the season.

Right now, tonight, he played like this was a tryout with 25 scouts watching…which it was. Now, he’ll need to show them a bit more and stay away from feeling ‘depressed’.

Now AZ. I’ll ask you a question. What should Watford expect from us, his fans? On good games and on bad games.

 
#35
Mass Hoosier
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 2:33 AM EDT

My grammar sucks.

 
#36
TsaoTsuG
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 2:34 AM EDT

Dustin, thanks. You did a hell of a job second half. What did you do to gather yourself so well 3/4ths of the way through the first half?

 
#37
TsaoTsuG
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 2:45 AM EDT

Mass, what you say is correct…but also hard to remember in the middle of the ‘fog of war’ in a game. And, as probably Chet would tell us, when the left engine of a twin engine plane goes off…and then the right engine shuts off and you can’t see the ground…is not really a good time to point out that your tie knot is sloppy.

I think CWat will be fine and comments to the contrary can only hurt this IU team.

 
#38
TsaoTsuG
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 2:52 AM EDT

Mass- oops, just noticed…the above is not to you directly. I think you took a pretty fair, balanced assessment of tonight. It’s directed at way, way too much analysis by many other ‘analysts’ of CWat’s overall but not all-inclusive ‘bad night’.

He had a bad night for what we expect from him. And, we beat North Carolina, a very average, yet disconnected team of generally confused first year players by thirty or so points. We’ll know a lot more about ourselves after the Butler game…they won’t come apart.

I enjoy your posts Mass. The lady from Ginobili country got the good deal.

 
#39
Podunker
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 2:54 AM EDT

Wow, I’m surprised by some of the negative comments about CW. Some of you sound as if he was the reason IU lost the game. Give him a break, CW had a bad game. No big deal because everyone else had his back. We have no idea if he is mildly injured, sick, or simply could not get the shots to fall tonight. But it happens and that’s why a team needs great depth. Let’s not forget that it was CW’s great clutch shot that lit the fuse last December and provided us with one of our greatest memories.

CW is still a very valuable part of this team. He’ll bounce back and make big contributions through this season.

Hey, how would you like to be the Coppin State basketball coach tonight?

 
#40
TsaoTsuG
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 2:57 AM EDT

One last point Mass. Maybe, as you say, your grammar sucks (not that I had noticed) and your analysis is solid. Others have solid grammar and their analysis sucks.

 
#41
TsaoTsuG
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 3:36 AM EDT

Podunker…great post. The Coppin State coach? How would you like to be Roy Williams, coach at NC and know everyone noticed almost as much as the 2011 win over Kentucky…which just decided to get out of the business after that loss and wanted us no where near Lexington this year? (‘But mommy…they play hard!…I don’t want them to come here!!’)

 
#42
Hoosier Clarion
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 9:48 AM EDT

The thing I keep focusing on about Watford is his entire career at IU has been a replay of this cycle of effort. At best he is inconsistent, at the worst he is a part timer when exerting effort. If this truly is a team with NC ambitions then CW must be the 7th man as I now consider Abell our 6th man. At this stage of time I do not see him ever changing. To bad.

 
#43
Podunker
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 2:02 PM EDT

HC, CW will continue to be a starter or a sixth man because he’s 6’9″, can rebound and he can hit three-pointers (not to mention, he is a senior, and that experience/perspective will come in handy this season.) His flaws not withstanding, he is, in relative terms, more valuable than Abell, at this time. I think what will be interesting to witness is what will happen when our other three bigs are able to play. Will he have to fight for more playing time? Will Perea be able to replace his minutes, rebounding skills, and defense? We’ll see.

 
#44
Mass Hoosier
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 2:11 PM EDT

I also probably should have said, everyone will have a night where things don’t go thier way. That is the beauty of this team.

 
#45
Geoff
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 2:26 PM EDT

HC – Watford always gets the “effort” question… I actually have a different take:

I think Watford is more like VJ3… Although a much more valuable piece. Watford came in and was counted on right away. He played minutes every game. He shot when he wanted to shoot. He was more talented than 95% of his teammates. Now his role is drastically different and the talent level around him is vastly improved, but he is having a hard time recognizing it. I believe that he only more talented than 60% of the roster now. The acceptable bad shots he took before are no longer acceptable. They no longer need him to win games… They can beat UNC by 30 with him only scoring 2 points.

I never questioned VJ3′s effort… It was always about him not understanding his role. It was about him thinking he still needed to force things because 2 years ago that was all they had. When he was on the court last year the team seemed to be running at 80%… Because Jones couldn’t recognize he was the 4th best player at his position.

Even last year, IU lacked depth. Especially in the front court. Watford was much more indispensable. He was counted on. He was part of the flow. This year we are loaded… And much like Jones last year I’m afraid Watford will have a hard time recognizing his role. He still thinks he’s the man. It’s not an effort thing… It’s a psychologically handi-capped thing.

 
#46
TsaoTsuG
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 8:47 PM EDT

Mass, and Crean has been successful in selling the idea that they are interchangeable parts and there’s not a first five, second five, bench. They’re basically members of a team where each serves the team. Now that’s ideal! Look at Sheehey, doesn’t seem to face him or mean much to him. I do think the younger kids will go through a learning experience that requires time (gosh-sounds like a family) while the olders teach the youngers how they fit into it.

Interesting too that Crean seems to be on to something teaching players how to play anywhere on the floor. Makes a lot of sense because it makes it a lot harder for an opponent to take ‘a player out of the game’. Last night it wasn’t working and he sat CW down. What do you do if you are Roy Williams and a good part of your plan was around having Watford on the floor? Having Sheehey in there was a totally different problem than they prepared for.

Same with the idea of (at times) two short guards who are outstanding at doing what they do, two tall ones who can also play a distributor role. And a center who has the attributes of a guard inside your defense and working out. It’s like laying against a mirror and you don’t know on which side of the mirror you are standing (can you imagine the NC freshmen? ‘But coach, the tall dude is feeding the ball… out and the little white dude is driving on us.’ Somebody has a very natural basketball brain there and is very intuitive about who we are and what he can do and not do.

 
#47
Hoosier Clarion
Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 12:03 PM EDT

Geoff,

I get your observation and it is fair. I still keep coming back to the Jones analogy being more about him always displaying energy but resulted in many poor decisions with the ball. Yes they were magnified as more talent arrived. The charge I make to CW is he disappears from competitive engagement offensively so often and then tries to catch up in spurts making similar poor decisions. Contrast that to Sheehey, Abell and Vic who are always engaged. Is his disengagement an action of trying to presently fit in or is it coasting? Is it a replay of the past 3 seasons? I am not talking as much about his rebounding and D energy. And he is money I’d bet on at the free throw line every time. But unless he ramps it up as he successfully did most of the B10 season last year I expect his minutes to diminish as the other 3 return. IU is stronger with a Watford playing on full boost than with any of the other 3 presently out. Believe me I want him to achieve and earn a 1st round draft spot for the good of his future and of the program.

I have been reading with interest the back and forth you and Chet are enjoying with ACC/FSU/VT. I’ll add 1 observation that really has nothing to do with your debate; over the past 12 seasons or so, VT and Beamer have done everything they can possibly do contractually ($) to keep Bud Foster(DC)on board, yet FSU and Jimbo let Stoops leave w/o any apparent proactive plan in place to try to keep him(after all the improvement of their D). The perfect example of 2 different ways to do business to attain the same goal. To me it is fascinating to observe.

This post is a hell of a lot longer than planned.

 
#48
Geoff
Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 12:21 PM EDT

Unfortunately Jimbo may be the next to go… his name is being bandied about with all the SEC openings.

all my talk of the next decade of dominance for FSU may have been premature.

 
#49
Hoosier Clarion
Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 2:26 PM EDT

After the orchestration of their plan for the Bowden succession worked so well I would have to think they will not let Jimbo get away w/o a stalwart effort to keep him. He might very well find himself the owner of Wakulla county.

 
#50
Chet
Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 3:58 PM EDT

FSU is just now emerging from their own metaphorical 40 years wandering the desert. Same, in many ways, for Clemson. This is probably the closest VT has come to being a down year since joining the conference. Losing their DC COULD be a severe blow as they have yet to demonstrate stability. VT recruits almost exclusively in Virginia where they have a chokehold.
The ACC is better when FSU is competitive but I doubt they’ll ever be that dominant in the conference again. FSU had early success against a collection of weak sisters. They didn’t face a good team within the conference for literally years at a time.

 
#51
Geoff
Friday, November 30, 2012 - 12:59 AM EDT

Chet… They were #1-5 for 14 straight years! Who cares about the ACC? They were better than everybody. The only teams who ever beat them were also top 5 teams – Miami, UF, Nebraska… And we beat those teams too.

 


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