Glass: Net-cutting and celebration was “entirely appropriate”


Awkward as it may have been after a loss that was arguably Indiana’s worst of the season, IU athletic director Fred Glass said he still believed the decision to have a ceremony after the Senior Night speeches complete with a presentation of the Big Ten championship trophy, hats and net-cutting was the right thing to do.

“I think it was great,” Glass said. “I think it’s very important to celebrate accomplishments like this. This team absolutely earned this. The game didn’t turn out the way we wanted to, but the body of work shows that these guys are Big Ten champions. Given what this team has been through and these players have been through, I think it’s entirely appropriate.”

Glass admitted the atmosphere surrounding the ceremony was more somber than Indiana would have liked and that the players were significantly less enthused about the idea for having lost the game, but said there was still no discussion about abandoning the idea.

“I think they were disappointed not to win that game,” Glass said. “I think everybody there got that. It’s hard to shift gears from a  disappointing loss to what was a broader accomplishment. I don’t think that takes away form the broader accomplishment itself. I think it was very appropriate to recognize that, to recognize that at home and recognize it on Senior Night.”

Glass also said he thinks it’s fair to recognize this team with its own banner, even though Indiana traditionally doesn’t hang separate banners for Big Ten championship teams, instead hanging one banner and adding the numbers of the years every time the Hoosiers clinch another one. However, Glass cited the 1983 Big Ten championship “Fans’ Banner” to make his case that it would be appropriate for this group to have its own.

“There’s certainly precedent for setting forth a specific year,” Glass said. The ’83 Big Ten championship team Coach Knight deemed that the ‘Fans’ Banner.’ It seems to be extremey appropriate for this team to have its own banner. I might call it the ‘We’re Back Banner’ not only for the accomplishments of this team. In my personal view, it would be a tribute not only to this team and this year but all the players in this era of bringing Indiana University basketball back. Last year there was discussion about putting a banner up there for that team that helped bring the whole thing together. I understand the sentiment behind that. But I don’t think we celebrate things that are less than championships. All of these kids sacrificed to come to this program when it was down. … Setting this apart as a separate accomplishment seems entirely appropriate.”

Crean said Tuesday night that he hoped to individualize all of Indiana’s 20 Big Ten championships with banners. Glass said he would support that if IU could make it work in Assembly Hall.

“Sure,” Glass said. “We were talking about 1983. That championship has its own story. The 2002 team has its own story. They all have their own stories. If the logistics of all of that work out, I wouldn’t have any opposition to that at all.”

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119 comments:

  • Byrd #1


    Wednesday, March 6, 2013 - 6:33 PM EST

    I think it was appropriate to cut the nets down. We are Big Ten Champs and this team and staff did an excellent job on preparing them for this season. Maybe just cutting down these nets was practice for the net cutting in Atlanta.
    Go Hoosiers!!!

  • Gram #2


    Wednesday, March 6, 2013 - 7:10 PM EST

    Okay, so we are all disappointed. We didn’t play well against The OSU, however we had a Very Good 2012-2013 basketball season. I had season tickets for 30+ years for both IU basketball and football. (Only gave them up because I am 75 now, and a Snowbird). I am proud of these players, each and every one of them. I am also a former Hatchet cheerleader and take pride in Cody’s accomplishments, along with his brothers Tyler and Luke. Please stay Cody – these college years can be the greatest. I want to see another NCAA championship in my lifetime. I was there for 1987 and I was in Atlanta too.

  • Bobskijo #3


    Wednesday, March 6, 2013 - 8:09 PM EST

    I.U. Is really tanking. Let’s look ahead to next year as they are done this year?.

  • TJ #4


    Wednesday, March 6, 2013 - 8:14 PM EST

    I said AFTER the Minnesota loss that EVERY team got a blueprint on how to beat us. ALL you have to do is go out and bitchslap this team and they fold. There is NO TOUGHNESS at ALL on this team other than HULLS…and to me Mbakwe and Ohio State came out with FIRE and IU acted Scared and clueless

  • Ron #5


    Wednesday, March 6, 2013 - 8:30 PM EST

    Three Cheers for Gram…The voice of reason.

  • iamahoosier #6


    Wednesday, March 6, 2013 - 11:04 PM EST

    Season on the Stink!

    Worse loss ever….probably not. Costly….we’ll soon find out. Cut down the nets…..I don’t think so.

    Cutting down the nets in Indiana is a ritual to celebrate winning a Championship. Last night did not feel like winning a Championship, in fact, it felt like losing one. Did this team “earn the right” to cut down the nets…..sure seems like stretching it to me. I’m old school and I imagine Coach Knight doing something else entirely with those nets…….

    Assuming a loss on Sunday @ Michigan, and I don’t see any evidence in the last half dozen games to assume anything else, the 2013 Hoosiers will end up in a 4 way tie for the Big Ten title…..whohoo! Hardly the expectation from a team ranked #1 in the country for 9 weeks this season.

    I truly believe this team has more talent than any in my memory, over 40 years. High expectations after several disastrous seasons may be delusional but with the pre-season Player of the Year, another 1st team All-American, Freshman of the year candidate at point guard and 2 seasoned Seniors with over 1000 career points each and the most respected 6th man in the country…….what should we expect?

    Could this team win the Big Ten outright…sure, the Big Ten Tournament for the 1st time….sure, a National Title for the first time in 25 years….I guess. They could also lose Sunday, lose to any of 4 or 5 teams in the 1st round of the BTT and a 2nd or 3rd round exit in the NCAA to a team like Butler wouldn’t be a total shock either.

    Lets face it, the team @ #1 for more weeks than any other, has been dealt one heartbreaking loss after another to teams that shouldn’t be within 10 points…..anything is possible!

    Hang on, it should be interesting. Thank God Coach Knight isn’t in charge, choking and throwing chairs might be in order….maybe even cutting down some nets!

  • tomahawk sean #7


    Wednesday, March 6, 2013 - 11:44 PM EST

    One more loss at Michigan and another one in the tourney would put The Hoosiers on the Harvard-approved path to the sixth national title. I am not worried at all. Let me explain.

  • tomahawk sean #8


    Wednesday, March 6, 2013 - 11:57 PM EST

    Tom Crean is a smart man. His style (maximum entropy) is not easy to explain. That’s why he has so much trouble in press conferences and goes on tangents about deflections, chances, risks and such. It’s a non-deterministic style. But it’s the best system out there at the moment.

    The system’s kryptonite is when someone like Bo, Stevens, Groce or even Matta lowers the temperature so much (slows and freezes the game) that the entropy of the game falls down to a very alarming low value. Then it’s scary and if you ask me time for Crean to throw a chair or otherwise get a technical so the entropy is increased again.

    The good thing is that we have players whose IQ and talent is off the charts. Actually I just realized we have five losses already. One more will be enough to get the Harvard’s Sixth. Dumb me. :oops: :eek:

  • Dmp81 #9


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 12:02 AM EST

    A separate banner for this year? Really? We could end up with a share of the big ten title, an early exit from two tournaments and a lot of disappointment. If you want to celebrate shared conference titles go to Illinois

  • Rico Chet #10


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 12:14 AM EST

    Harvard’s Sixth has potential, I think…

  • Bombay Sapphire #11


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 1:15 AM EST

    Its funny that Crean has decided to end the season early by just continually saying “They’ve earned this, they’ve earned it.” What have they earned? So far they’ve earned a share of the B1G title but that could also mean 5 B1G losses. If they win at Ann Arbor, obviously that would be great. If they don’t its 3 losses in 4 games. I get that we should all be as ‘thankful’ as Crean is for what the players have done. But at the same time its not like the starting 5 is some unheralded group of Watf, Verdell, Pritchard, Elston, Hulls…instead it has 2 All Americans in Zeller and Oladipo, a future one in Yogi Ferrell. Why do we have to stop the season early and just be thankful all the time? Why can’t we expect them to go ahead and keep playing and get the most out of this loaded roster? I wish we’d stop ‘reflecting’ and start raising the expectations…last season we over achieved. Now its time to move on from the whole “oh when we got here there was nothing, absolutely nothing.” We get it Crean, that was like 10 years ago, lets go ahead and start having expectations to win like a loaded roster should….

  • JimBob #12


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 2:56 AM EST

    It’s funny what some of you complain about. Calm down and enjoy the season. Some of you put so much ridiculous thought into your moronic rationales that it’s alarming. Go outside and shovel some snow to take out your pissy-ness.

    There are at least 8-10 teams that have a great shot at winning an NCAA Championship this season and IU is in that category. So settle yourselves, step back off the ledge (or jump off), and get ready for the best month in sports.

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #13


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 3:03 AM EST

    ^Great post. I just anointed my shovel as capable of shoveling it all and have decided to wait for warm weekend weather to melt the overly hyped white pillows of nature’s splendor.

  • YouWillNeverKnow #14


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 9:07 AM EST

    I’m certainly not saying the season is a loss. Winning a Big Ten championship is always a big deal. However, the Hoosiers haven’t played well for THREE games, not one. Smacked in the mouth at Minnesota, played like garabage and survived Iowa, and were less than stellar at HOME on SENIOR NIGHT, with a chance to win a CHAMPIONSHIP. Things need to change quickly.

  • Punjab #15


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 9:24 AM EST

    I’m friends with an Alabama fan down here. He remembers the nineties and the early 00′s when they were but a shell of their football past. He does not understand the sense of entitlement that his fellow fans and alumni have adopted over the last few years. It’s as if they forgot the hardships and the years of losing, They don’t seem to appreciate huge wins, unless they happen to come in a BCS title game. I really hope we don’t take our Hoosiers for granted like that. It’s nobody’s birthright to win championships, and I’m saddened that some of us just want more, more, more without bothering to appreciate what’s right in front of us. Shameful.

  • J Pat #16


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 9:36 AM EST

    They have been through a lot, Crean has been through a lot. I can agree with the trophy deal but cutting down the nets could/can cause complacency in a young mind…I don’t like it. Just my opinion trying to look at it from a coaching perspective!

  • Punjab #17


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 9:55 AM EST

    I see you’re point, JPat. But so can being preseason #1, preseason POY, holding the #1 spot twice as long as anyone, having another POY front-runner emerge, and being anointed as the odds on favorite by nearly every national pundit to win it all. If a net-cutting ceremony is what finally causes complacency in this team, then we didn’t deserve any of those accolades to begin with.

  • J Pat #18


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 9:59 AM EST

    Punjab, I very respectfully disagree. These kids have grown up watching the nets be cut down to “one shining moment” (I like the Pendergrass version the best)and the nets symbolize the end, the final straw, the winning it all! I just don’t like it…that’s all! I can see your point though and if they spank Michigan in Ann Arbor maybe I will stand corrected!

  • kenny george #19


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 10:37 AM EST

    Love it Harvard, Love it!!!!!!

  • Chet #20


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 10:41 AM EST

    Something everyone seems to have overlooked, if they win at Ann Arbor nobody is gonna let them bring out a ladder and cut down Michigan’s nets. While it would make for an interesting, surreal, and potentially ugly scene, I’m afraid Big Blue wouldn’t stand for it.

    The other night was the first, last, and only opportunity they were gonna get to cut down nets for winning the regular season title (we didn’t know other teams were gonna lose and take themselves out). If they didn’t do it then they weren’t going to be able to do it at all.

    Regarding banners, you should see the Dean Dome in Chapel Hill. They have banners for everything under the sun. They’ll put up a banner for sloppy joe night in the cafeteria. I think IU should find space for conference title banners at Assembly Hall.

  • Rico Chet #21


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 11:14 AM EST

    Something everyone seems to have overlooked, if they win at Ann Arbor nobody is gonna let them bring out a ladder and cut down Michigan’s nets.

    I didn’t overlook it, in fact I am counting on it. From now on whenever we win a game, wherever that happens: snap! snap! we should cut the all the nets building. Next season too, even after a cupcake. Soon the whole country will be too afraid to play us.

  • J Pat #22


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 11:37 AM EST

    Chet, I never overlooked that. The way Crean does things he could have had a ceremony and had 10,000 plus show up to do the net thing, one last autograph session, and collected can goods while at it. I don’t know…I am just trying to look at it from when I was that age and from a coaches perspective.

    I can honestly say I have never really thought this way but I had a friend email and say…they really have underachieved all around when compared to the talent and media hype for this year. I got to thinking and he is right on, especially losing home games has been a let down. I think we/I expected Perea to be a real factor this year, Hollowell too and that did not pan out. I also think as many people have said, we lack toughness at times but the real reason for the 5 losses are for whatever reason the coaching staff has chosen not to run a multi-screen oriented offense around Hulls and Dipo to get them open and the failure to consistently feed Zeller the ball…I hope these things don’t get us in The Big Dance!? 25

  • Hoosier Clarion #23


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 11:51 AM EST

    JP, I don’t think what was done was all that out of line. But your idea is for sure more beneficial to the program, fans and to the community. Ever thought about working for the IU AD even on a contract basis? I am serious.

  • J Pat #24


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 11:58 AM EST

    Clarion, funny and/or ironic. I have had the same job for almost 15 years and for once it is not secure for next year. I would do that in a heart beat but I have found out it is damn hard to get a job at IU athletics in anything!

  • JulieS #25


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 12:16 PM EST

    Well, at least the boys didn’t look like they were buying this premature ceremony. I can only hope it embarrassed them into actually playing to earn it on Sunday.

    I understand the power of positive thinking, but that ceremony with shirts and hats and nets was way over the top. Heck, the university is even selling t-shirts now with Big Ten champ on them. I prefer to wait and see if it’s a true championship or just a quarter of the pie. I suspect the team feels that way, too.

  • Hoosier Clarion #26


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 12:40 PM EST

    JP, write Glass about your feelings on the celebration/net subject and the thoughts about your alternative(s). Who knows over time and 8 or 9 pieces of correspondence to him on other matters an opportunity sprouts. You’re only out time and maybe postage. Don’t say uncle either to yourself or out loud. I’ve heard about much more remote possibilities developing.

  • Carey Pittman #27


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 2:15 PM EST

    How dumb to cut down the nets . The Hoosiers haven’t won anything yet.Yes, at the least they can tie for the Big 10 champion ship, but that’s like kissing your sisture. There are only 2 times that you cut down the nets in collage basketball. Regional championship win to go to the final 4 and the win for the National chapionship. Fred you are wrong and don’t ever do that again.

  • TsaoTsuG #28


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 2:35 PM EST

    Unfortunately, we’ve turned the tradition of net cutting and banner hanging into a marketing function. We seem to have forgotten ‘It’s Indiana’.

    This is about history and tradition and respecting both.

    I know there are five flags hanging on one end of Assembly Hall. There are a number of banners celebrating Hoosier-won Big Ten Championships. Somewhere (I don’t know where) we keep and show the nets from the games that led to the Big Ten Championship. All that is legitimate and a part of our history. During my life, in my travels outside the country, I would tell stories of that piece of history and culture that is Hoosier basketball. And people would nod admiringly in places where only a World Cup win is held as a treasure, or a World Series championship or an Olympic Gold Medal are considered part of people’s lore.

    I’ve admired (and have said so) Mr. Glass energy and ideas and his vision of a true Hoosier ethic of winning and winning the right and legitimate way. Glass has given us a clear challenge and has the entire Hoosier Nation working to define and achieve the glory of that challenge as we did in Basketball with five national championship, in football with a Big Ten championship and a Rose Bowl appearance in 1967, in swimming when we set a curve and redefined the term Hoosier Pride, in Soccer were the world’s most popular sport immigrated into the consciousness of US college sports through the glory of an unforgettable 20 years of Hoosier soccer.

    These deserve flags hanging and banners with the year of the maximum and legitimate achievements shown and nets (basketball and soccer)framed into glass boxes, and trophy helmets hung…this is”‘It’s Indiana”

    Please Mr. Glass, don’t cheapen it with cloth following a three loss streak, or a championship allowed to slide into a co-championship or an event we won’t remember three years from now. Don;t be the marketing PR A.D., be the proud Hoosier who accepts only the history of true achievement and the athletes and coaches who brought them and defined who we are, Hoosiers!

    Don’t disappoint us. Please give it some thought.

  • Patricia #29


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 3:03 PM EST

    They are at least co-champions. Had they won the game, would you feel differently? They don’t deserve to cut down nets and accept the trophy? Why NOT????? It’s ridiculous to think just because they lost the last game that they are not entitled to enjoy the fruits of their efforts. Yes, it would have been great had they won, but it in no way negates that they are at the very least CO-CHAMPIONS. One has nothing do do with the other. Jeez.

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #30


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 5:32 PM EST

    We were already co-champs going into Tuesday night’s game. They should have cut the nets down before the game to OSU. There should have been a planned delay(made to look accidental)that caused the nets to be delivered 10 minutes later than scheduled tip-off. Somehow, the stock room was locked and the equipment manager was nowhere to be found. This mind game tactic could have got into the heads of some of the Buckeyes(this would be analogous to the power to the stadium lights going off at the Super Bowl.Make OSU believe the net blunder was intentional) Replace the nets. We would then cut the nets down again three hours later if we won the title outright. ..Simply discard the first set of nets…or sell the remnants/pieces on eBay

    I covered all this unnecessary accolades/banners stuff a month ago. Obviously, my advice was not taken. It’s all about being politically correct these days..It’s why we ruined our one tournament system rooted in our storied high school basketball. Multiple classes so more can “feel” the false sense of being the best..More trophies and more banners…Why? Because we’re all winners.

    Anymore of this self-anointing BS and the truly valid achievements/winning becomes as discernible as trying to find a sentence or two of logic lost in the discarded “volumes” of Harvard’s wordy landfills on Scoop.

    ____________________________________

    Harvard for Hillbillies
    Tuesday, February 5, 2013 – 6:26 PM UTC

    Banners? If, during the Knight years, Indiana followed the popular banner hanging trend used at Butler and all other Big 10 schools today(hung banners for Sweet 16, Elite 8, Big 10 championships, Final Four appearances, and Championships), you couldn’t hang all the banners won by Knight in three Assembly Halls.

    Why don’t we hang every banner for every achievement like they do at Mackey and Hinkle? Because it’s Indiana.

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #31


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 5:43 PM EST

    And did Cody really come to Indiana as a true high school champion? Did Yogi come as a true champion. They were not the level of a Scott Skiles or a Damon Bailey. They won a trophy for beating the “best” schools relative to the size their own dinky towns and private schools.

    Conclusion: Maybe they already arrived at Indiana with a subtle sense of “entitlement” for achievements never considered trophy/banner-worthy in the traditional sense our once storied high school basketball. They received accolades for beating a similar opponent based on “class” and inequities where the Cinderella never gets a chance to go to the big dance with a percieved elite/big players of the state. Maybe this breeds a “soft” mentality in our state basketball system. So quit blaming all the spinelessness on Tom Crean.

  • Patricia #32


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 6:00 PM EST

    Wow. How quickly people turn.

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #33


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 6:00 PM EST

    I’m thinking of a new blogging name…

    Kinda throwing around ‘Banners “R” Us’…?

    Should I stick with HfH or do the change?

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #34


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 6:10 PM EST

    Patricia-

    I’m being mostly facetious(tongue-in-cheek)…

    But you can’t ignore the fact that there’s been a lot of regulars on Scoop implying a “softness” and sense of entitlement that has infected our team. I have not been beating that drum with same level of obsession as many on here…I’m simply defending Crean by suggesting that everything doesn’t happen in a bubble. Is it possible our own choices at the high school state level of competition is making too many feel like “champions” without ever really going up against the toughest competition within their sport? Maybe some of these young prima donnas a product of the mini classes didn’t get enough taste of being eliminated and butt-whipped at a sectional or regional…?

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #35


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 6:18 PM EST

    I honestly believe those are some of my best posts of the month. Not trying to float my own boat, but don’t you agree, Geoff? Is there not some hint of logic in the forwarded arguments?

    Scoop Banner? #1 seed in Scoopotology? $15.00 gift certificate to Trojan Horse?…Free copy of ?

  • TsaoTsuG #36


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 6:46 PM EST

    Your argument is absolutely on target Harvard (BannersR’Us). This may be one of your most absolutely best argued and most important, critical and relevant posts I’ve read from you Harvard Banners.

    I coached a team of players that refused and rejected the ‘Most Improved Player” award, calling it the “Up From Sucky Award’.

    These, sadly, are the days in which every kid gets a ‘participation’ trophy. An entire industry has grown around the marketing of recognition awards and medals- the incentive industry. Look at the ballyhoo that preceded the Ohio State game. Here’s a question, how much did we spend in celebrating the 10-point loss to Ohio State?

    The answer depends… It depends on whether you are a Hoosier or if you are still celebrating that we got as far as the final game of the semifinals of the 2012 NCAA Tournament. Personally, I find more meaning in the tournament game earlier this season when we had to gut it out against a tough, tough Georgetown team to go home with a valued win. That’s Indiana!.

    Back to your question Patricia. I’ll proudly celebrate the 2013 Big Ten Championship if and after we beat Michigan this Sunday, at Michigan. That’s what someone who proudly bears the label ‘Hoosier’. Anything else (a quintuple overtime loss)is a loss and we would not be the Champs. (Five Co-champions are not champions, the only time when the truth the word champions with a little ‘c’ is more important than the word ‘Champions’ with a big ‘C’.

    And, if you insist on saying they (the players) ‘deserve something’, then IU really lost something during those years when we smile and nodded and let Kelvin Sampson tried to win the Championship by cheating his way to it.

    Bring home a real Championship, I’m a Hoosier!

  • TsaoTsuG #37


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 6:57 PM EST

    Harvard, I had not even read your number #35 when I wrote my comment #36. Actually post #36 3-4 minutes ago and then noticed your #35.

    Why did your earlier posts call my attention. Because today you are ripping it out 6-7 yards a carry, bringing down 14 rebounds and 6 steals. That’s Banner Harvard stuff. Suggestion, ring out Banner Harvard when you know it is so. (And, don’t have to ask for approval from anyone). You take the shot Hoosier!

  • TsaoTsuG #38


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 7:08 PM EST

    Sorr, obviously I’m not editing…have a bug that is making my computer act like it’s been drinking super-caffeinated drinks in a church picnic on an ant-hill full of over 65+ y.o. church matrons.

  • Geoff #39


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 7:50 PM EST

    Yeah Harvey Banners, pretty good stuff. Couple things from me…

    1) I think the net-cutting needs to be taken in the proper context of the nights festivities. My guess is the fans that were at the game have a little bit different take than those that weren’t…. Maybe not. I don’t know the order of events in Senior Night, nor the length of the ceremony, but I’m willing to bet that the atmosphere inside Assembly had changed by the time the nets were cut. I watched parts of each of the seniors speeches, which were obviously very emotional… By the end of all of that I’m sure I would have been reminded of how much I appreciated the effort these players have put in and the depths they’ve risen, not just the program, but all of us fans, from. I probably would have forgiven the nights performance and helped celebrate the bigger achievement with those young men.

    2) the argument about softness created by the change in the tournament system is iffy. It’s the system they grew up in. It’s not like it changed halfway through their HS careers. They haven’t experienced any other system. It’s also the system that every other state I’ve lived in has done it since before I was born. I thought indiana’s system was “unique” and “special”, but I don’t think that system inherently creates softness. It’s a totally fair system. I’m not sure that having 4 or 6 state champions versus just one when you consider the hundreds of schools makes much of a difference in the oval scheme of things.

    3) to make an analogy (maybe a poor one) to the fairness system. Imagine your outrage if the justice system or education system were not fair for different “classes” of people…. Oh wait, it’s not. The poor do not have the same access to quality legal assistance as the wealthy… by no real fault of their own. Therefore regardless of their guilt or innocence, they are convicted at a much higher rate. School funding and quality education is not afforded to the poor, and in many cases minorities, at the same level as the middle class and wealthy. Now they are looking at cutting important programs like Head Start. Do these kids realistically have the same chance at success in life as kids of greater means? That’s stats say no.

    So when you argue that the class system is creating softies who haven’t really earned anything because they didn’t beat the big boys I don’t really buy it. Obviously this doesn’t have the same dire consequences of my examples, but it speaks to why fairness is ok and important, not “soft”. Realistically these kids at small schools don’t have a chance at winning a state title. I mean Hoosiers was made because it happened ONCE… Right? So I think it’s fair to give the same chance to kids at small schools succes as you do at the larger schools. In almost 100% of cases it’s not the kids decision/fault where he goes to school.

    Now, outside of that, if you want to say society in general is creating a generation of softies because of this everyone gets a ribbon/trophy mentality I won’t disagree. For a brief time in Maine we went from having only the top 8 teams in each class for both Eastern and Western Maine be eligible for the playoffs to having EVERYONE eligible… Which sucked, and there was a big debate… After a couple years we settled on the current system which is 10 teams in each class (for each East and West), with the bottom 4 seeds playing prelim games to see who faces the top 2 seeds… Yoda Yoda Yoda…. Anyway, my point is that we were able to swiftly “correct” the system before it got entrenched and compromise on one that was slightly more inclusive than the first system, but far less inclusive (and rewarding of mediocrity and awfulness) the one that the lefty MPA went to without much discussion or outside input.

  • Larry #40


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 9:25 PM EST

    I’d like to make a comment on the class system issue. Creating a softie program is entirely up to just how much development towards becoming a man/woman/athlete & compete in life the coach wants. In my sons HS, (he played baseball only at Central Catholic)it was given the schedule is no softie, Central Catholic (classA) scheduled numerous 4A, numerous 3A, 2A & of course 1A schools. That was a huge difference in most of the programs we played enroute to 4 straight baseball titles, our schedule vs our opponents. it was the 1st thing us parents looked at when we received our opponent, their schedule. We played the likes of Cathedral, Andrean, etc, etc. Not only were these bigger schools scheduled, the team was expected to compete, there was never ever an excuse of the school is bigger & that’s why we lost, wrong.

  • elmo #41


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 10:30 PM EST

    I,m going next door and cut the nets off of the neighbor,s garage and sing Indiana Indiana etc.

  • DLS #42


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 10:33 PM EST

    Cutting down the nets after a crushing home defeat?!
    Has to be one of the grimmest and most inappropriate “celebrations” ever. The photo in the paper said it all: the joylessness was palpable.

    Our coach and AD were way off key and socially tone-deaf on this one. This was Big Ten athletics, not middle-school self-esteem therapy.

  • sesame street basketball #43


    Thursday, March 7, 2013 - 11:33 PM EST

    ^ elmo, great idea man, it’s what we do

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #44


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 12:26 AM EST

    Geoff-

    You’re not familiar with Scott Skiles and Plymouth? It’s legendary stuff…Milan can’t compare because the game had changed dramatically in the two decades between. What Scott Skiles did at the state championship was beyond anything a Hollywood script could sell to the public. It was beyond magical. It maybe wouldn’t happen again for another two decades, but it’s worth waiting for.

    The sold out something beautiful that was part of our basketball lifeblood and mystique. Indiana high school hoops will never again have the electrifying wonderment it could call its own.

    We built political correctness and we sold out tradition because it cost less and it was believed it would generate more revenues in the longer term. It failed at all levels. Big gyms are now half empty at sectionals. Lackluster crowds…The goosebumps are gone. I think it does breed softness and it killed a collective passion, town unity, school pride, memories, where unknowns from small and mid-size schools, obscure little corners of the state, teams with histories of losing finally hitting the talent roulette wheel, could work together to achieve something truly special.

    Cody Zeller was never given the opportunity to show he could put that Washington team on his back and beat the Goliaths of Indy, Lafayette, Muncie, etc. Many of those players that play for the big city schools are more likely from families on food stamps. Higher percentages are African American. And though they go to big schools, it’s just as much a disservice(almost a form of segregation/protectionism) to not allow them the opportunity to go against the highly heralded recruit getting national attention protected from a full array of diverse competition because he lives in small predominantly white town. Heaven forbid the schools with much higher percentages of minorities were gobbling up state championships. The state of Indiana used basketball to integrate its population. Read up on Crispus Attucks high school. Indiana was the first state that allowed African Americans to participate equally through the one class basketball tournament.

    We’ve reverted back to protecting and separating. We’ve returned to the Establishment way of privilege that unwilling to relinquish power and boundaries where their gifts and talent can’t match up if stirred into the pot.

    Indiana hoops was once a melting pot of equal access in all its unfairness. No, it certainly didn’t favor the Milans, Plymouths, and Washingtons when the inevitable match-up against the bigger city school loomed ahead. Now it’s a segregated system with more walls of economic distinctions defining its so-called fairness. Nothing looms ahead but the safety your own neighborhood and tracks and a more or less marginally challenging opponent…Nothing to defy the logic within the limits of the rare outside shots your family’s ability to leave streets of poverty or make flight to the suburbs based on economic status. Privilege and protection was never Indiana basketball. It may not have been fair when Plymouth would lose 24 out of 25 years at a regional site, but it was definitely a rare and beautiful privilege to see that giving an equal advantage was never worth a banner or trophy if it perpetuated divisions and protections for an already naturally segregated economic class system already in place(often rooted in the economics of rural/suburbia/small town vs. inner city/industrial lifestyles).

  • Geoff #45


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 12:42 AM EST

    Well Harvard, its a perspective isn’t it… What you are proposing is completely unprovable, so it’s not worth too much more debate. I disagree with your premise that it creates softness. Who is to say who’s “tougher”… The small school that loses by 35 to Pike in the sectionals or the 1A school that earns a hard fought state title against a similar sized foe. Like I said before, from a FAN’S perspective, it has lost some of its specialness… But I guarantee you that is generational and something this current crop of players only hears about but doesn’t internalize with any significance.

    I respect your opinion on this, but disagree.

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #46


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 12:50 AM EST

  • Geoff #47


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 12:53 AM EST

    Harvey Banners… I also have a sneaking suspicion that there is some decent diversity within the classes… Carmel vs Pike… Luers vs Bluffton… I won’t bother writing down about 50 other examples I could make. I spend enough time in Indiana and have enough relatives around the state to have a decent understanding of the demographics.

  • Punjab #48


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 1:22 AM EST

    Great find, Harv. Loved the article. I have a few takeaways, though.

    - I would imagine if you just said the name Calbert, most Hoosiers would still know who you’re talking about.

    - I wonder if the James Blackmon who scored 50+ for Marion is at all related to the Jr. who will be lighting it up for the Hoosiers very soon?

    - An homage to my hometown of Bloomington, IN. You may have heard of it. My North Cougars won the very last single-class state tournament in 1997. It seems fitting.

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #49


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 1:28 AM EST

    Certainly no more unprovable than attributing Cody’s “softness” to his coach.

    Many argued that a cupcake schedule is why we’ve had issues with grind it out games. I’m merely suggesting that “cupcake” class basketball creates comforts the same. Building systems/schedules that offer more protections from losing rather than elections and choices of ultimate challenges. Watering down success is not my idea of anything worthwhile a goosebump. The sectional sites are drawing fewer fans for a reason. Our once unparalleled high school tournament can no longer compete with staying home to watch ‘Game of Thrones.’

    Looking like the rest of the country was never Indiana basketball.

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #50


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 1:36 AM EST

    Carmel is recruiting, Geoff. Not much diversity in Carmel. Scott Skiles had more inner city toughness in his cornfield roots than you’ll ever see out of a Carmelite snoot.

  • TsaoTsuG #51


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 2:29 AM EST

    Harvard completely right; try as you might, if you did not grow up in it it’s different to understand the equality of a basketball bouncing at Butler (now Hinkle) Fieldhouse where for at least four weekends 17,000+ from cities as big as Gary, Fort Wayne, and Indianapolis met industrial towns like Muncie (Central), Lafayette, and Anderson; or towns like Noblesville or Oolitic or French Lick (Springs Valley),…in Indiana.

    Let’s not fool ourselves looking for the justification of the ‘class system’, they designed exactly what they wanted. And they named it.

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #52


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 10:15 AM EST

    Chet-

    Am I remembering correctly that your wife was a great swimmer? I have a really inspiring story about some swimmers from Indiana that competed at the high school level. Is there class distinctions at the state championships in the pool?

    Won’t likely have enough time today to dive(pun intended) into where I’m going with this, but it has a lot to do with assumptions and deceptions of “superiority” within sports. It has parallels to the flaws and assumptions built into “c;ass” basketball system that no longer pools(pun intended again)all competition together with at least a chance to prove what a team or an individual can do on one stage that can put the “best and biggest”(biggest often being the assumption of the best based on dominance it affords by shear numbers)against the unknown and unheralded. The female swimmers that I watched at a Indiana state finals did something as stunning in the water as any of the storied and rare Cinderellas that made their splashes upon the morning pages of their lore on hardwood our once all-inclusive state basketball tournament. And though the swimming finals finished as usual with the biggest trophy going to the biggest school, the goosebumps fell upon my arms because of four swimmers that proved numbers can be very small and still stand incomparably tall. That’s what we lost in taking those rare and beautiful moments away from our basketball. The chances for equal stages though so uncommon and unlikely a shot be in the next lane the “percieved” best. Our class basketball system now neglects how the stage itself can inspire the adrenalin and moments forever shocking and inexplicable that change preconceived notions. To prevent any individual in achieving that dream of being on an equal stage is a crime.

    I realized its a crime to deny equal opportunity in sports when I watched that swim meet..I saw how four lives were likely changed in that pool that pitted the biggest and best against the nobody school. I witnessed uncontrollable pride where the results on one race on one equal stage can bring everlasting memories and smiles when such rare opportunities are afforded. It’s what sports is all about. It’s why our basketball tournament was once so unique. Hope. The hope for one chance. The faith in your skills and teammates that if somehow you can make it to that one stage, you can prove you belong.

    One day, when I have more time, I’ll tell the story of those four high school swimmers..Four girls that proved they belong in the pool. I was blessed to have bought a ticket, spent a Saturday afternoon immersing myself in a sport I had rarely taken much interest to attend events. Goosebumps and memories my own high school days blossomed with that fortune to watch firsthand from a high perch in the stands a natatorium. Revisited were my memories I once had as a youngster of dreaming to be on the biggest stage of sport I loved. The passion in hearing the cheers..watching the stunned faces..proving you can be unheard of and still belong. Proving your passion never died though you may not have touched the wall first or ever made it to that regional championship game. It’s proving we belong, proving it with bonds to teammates we grew up with and forever believe in, that drives hearts to victory.

  • Geoff #53


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 10:28 AM EST

    Harvard… That was my point. Isn’t there a difference between the students you may find at Carmel and those you find, at say, Indy Pike? And yet, despite those differences you see those schools competing against eachother in the tournament.

    You tried to make the point that divvying up the sizes of schools eliminates the diversity. I’m saying there is still diversity within each class of schools.

    Your point that Carmel is homogenized has no bearing because it would be that way under either system.

    (Quick side question… Has there any been any proof that Carmel recruits? Or are you doing that rumor thing?)

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #54


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 10:39 AM EST

    I have another great story of girl that finished next to last in a grueling 800 freestyle event. It was a middle school swimmer..She was from a family that didn’t have much. I’ve never seen an athlete display more heart as she went into her final laps running out of gas and catching a glimpse of the last place swimmer making up ground on her. It brought me to tears ten years ago and still has the effect today. So much of what defines the heart of champions is rarely seen by eyes glued to televisions. You have to be in the gyms..in the natatoriums. You have to see the mom cheering her guts out for her one child. You have to get your butt in the seats. It’s only in the seats that you realize how much we’re all so alike.

  • Geoff #55


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 10:58 AM EST

    Harvard…

    If Indiana is anything like Maine, there are about 1/20 the numbers of schools that have swim teams as basketball teams. Kind of makes it a different beast up here. Maybe I’m wrong though and every school has a swim team down there.

    Now your statement “to prevent any individual from achieving that dream of being on an equal stage is a crime” is excellent… But it can easily be interpreted to bolster my argument of fairness. Is competing against school of equal size to earn achievement a crime? Or is pitting David against Goliath every year in hopes that every once in a while David will overcome (but knowing that 95 times out of a 100 he will get squashed) a crime?

    Now, the problem sounds like there are too many Hoosiers who are holding a grudge and won’t turn out to watch this bastardized system. Not the system itself. The Eastern Maine tournament held in Bangor each year decides the Eastern Maine titles for each class (A, B, C, D) and is held at the 6,000 seat Bangor Auditorium (kinda Maine’s Hinkle) and is packed for every game on the boys and girls side all the way from quarters to the finals. It’s also packed for the State Game between the Eastern and Western Maine Champs that’s held their every other year. Ive had the privilege of coaching in one of those games and its electric. In opposite years its held at the Cumberland County Civic Center in Portland, which is a bit bigger and doesn’t fill to capacity with as much regularity but still packs in thousands all the way through. All the tournament games are broadcast live on Public Television and that doesn’t even keep the fans away.

    The problem isn’t the system Harvard, its the fans acceptance of it. While Maine will never produce the number of quality basketball players that Indiana does it doesn’t mean that Hoosiers can’t learn anything from Mainers when it comes to supporting their teams and tournaments.

    (Another quick question… Do more D1 players in Indiana come from the bigger schools or the smaller schools? If the answer is the bigger schools then the it isn’t an assumption that the bigger schools are better, it’s a fact. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, but they also prove the rule)

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #56


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 11:01 AM EST

    My kid attended Pike. How much information do you want?

    You can debate it ’til you’re blue. I understand there is a certain amount of diversity at all levels/sizes of schools. I’m speaking of chances to prove you belong. And though rare those opportunities may surface, there is nothing that can replace the energy and pride felt to go against the ‘percieved’ strongest and ‘percieved’ best opponent wearing the other jersey or in the adjacent lane in the pool. And though extremely rare it may ever reach championship level, in my humble opinion, denying those chances(even if 1 in 1000 there likelihood is a watered down existence and goes contrary to what sports should be about. It’s a crime to deny the bonds and friendships that grow from dreams to be on that ONE stage and proving you belong. We had that in Indiana basketball. It has been diluted and drowned in fairness of numbers and unfairness a dream. There is no longer one pool for all a chance to dive off the same blocks. There is no longer a chance for five kids from a dying steel town to take to the floor and take their Gary Wallace team south 160 miles and prove they can be better and more driven to a finish line in four quarters of a championship game against a Goliath school known as Pike. Nor was their a chance for Cody Zeller and his unheralded teammates to do the same. Forever left only to dreams but never a chance a reality. That’s how you kill dreams. That’s how you kill passion.

  • Geoff #57


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 11:06 AM EST

    Wouldn’t a simple solution to your problem be to take the winners of the 4 class state titles and have a mini-tourney for supremacy? Gives your David a taste of success and the chance to beat Goliath…

    I’m sure I’m the 10,000th person to bring this up (probably just this month), but what say you on this?

  • Geoff #58


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 11:19 AM EST

    False Harvard – I watched the Eastern Maine Class D state title game on TV this year because one of my good friends is a coach for one of the 2 teams. His team won in OT and half the team immediately dropped to the floor and started weeping. The passion and pride was so evident that my chest got tight and eyes watery, and I’ve never met any of those kids.

    They lived out their dreams. Their passion was immeasurable. So was that of the fans.

    The problem is you Harvard. It is not the system. The only thing killing the passion or making less of the achievement of these champions’ dreams is old farts like you telling them they aren’t “real” champions because they didn’t beat the big boys. Devoid of your opinion Harvard I’m sure these kids would have the pride and passion displayed by the kids in Maine. (To be honest they probably still do, but you’re just to far up your own butt on this one to notice it)

  • Geoff #59


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 11:25 AM EST

    Are the demographics of Pike similar to those of Carmel? That’s all I need to know. If so, my point is valid.

  • Geoff #60


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 11:27 AM EST

    Whoops… “If not, my point is valid.”

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #61


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 11:28 AM EST

    Geoff-

    Indiana isn’t Maine. You could probably pack 5000 in a gym during the winter months to watch cage fights between squirrels in Maine. Little squirrel always win because better at hiding nuts.

    I remember how I used to open the Monday morning paper and read the hundreds of final scores of sectionals all across the state. It was a religion, Geoff. Legislators killed my religion. And they killed all the little squirrels that wanted to play amongst the big oaks. Keep them in the small trees where they belong.

  • Geoff #62


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 11:38 AM EST

    You’re the one making assumptions Harvard and you sound like a fool. I can talk about Indiana because I’ve lived there and spend time there every year. I have relatives all over the state. My parents are there. When you try to talk about Maine you have no point of reference besides whatever weird crap you constantly are dreaming up in your head. You sound like a fool and your points are getting worse with each post.

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #63


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 11:40 AM EST

    Go interview Scott Skiles. You’re getting nowhere with me.

    Ask Scoot Skiles how the passion to play for a 2-A trophy would have driven his childhood dreams. Hell, ask his teammates if they’d replaced four 2-A championships in a row for that one shot to belong. It’s never been about quantity of chances in Indiana. It’s about quality of chances and the equality within those chances, hopes, and dreams.

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #64


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 11:49 AM EST

    You’re really getting into attack mode, Geoff. I don’t care if I sound like a fool to you.

    You sound like the fool when you label Cody as soft along with the many insinuating that the lack of backbone is because of his coach. Yet, you’ll cover whomever your heroes with excuses and blame refs to overshadow facts when your heroes just don’t play well. It doesn’t function within a bubble. A lifetime of experiences and internal wiring mold men into what they become. Cody can change. Singular moments can change lifetimes. We can all change. I don’t predestine you or him to anything.

  • Geoff #65


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 12:53 PM EST

    I haven’t labelled Cody as a soft player. I’ve agreed that he’s had soft moments. Just like I don’t think IU is a soft team, we just aren’t very good at responding to getting hit first. We are pretty good when we hit first. It’s not like we can’t hit, so I can’t label IU as soft.

    I get defensive when you start making arguments based on assumptions of something you have zero experience with.

    You get defensive when I have re-quoted other people’s writings or stereotypes (e.g. Indiana is all cornfields), and try to pin those on me like they’re mine and then label me a non-Hoosier.

    Now as far as Scott Skiles… It has no relevance to the argument. He grew up in that era. That’s his point of reference. The current kids grow up in the current system, and that’s their point of reference. Kids in Maine grow up in the system that Indiana currently has. None of those kids lack passion and they all have dreams of winning state championships. It is a huge and celebrated accomplishment to win the state title here in each class… And since there aren’t any old farts sitting around grumbling about how the old system was the “real way to do it” and telling the kids they aren’t “real champions” because the Class D team didn’t beat the Class A team, none of them feel diminished in any way.

    Again, Harvard – you are the problem. Not the system.

  • Geoff #66


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 12:58 PM EST

    Harvard, its very difficult to ever get anywhere with you because you don’t listen to logic or respond to anyone’s counterpoints.

  • Hoosier Clarion #67


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 1:23 PM EST

    I have to agree with H4H, class BB has greatly diluted what was a special time in Indiana, Hoosier Hysteria. For 17 seasons the experiment has been losing popularity. With the bottom still nowhere in sight. An unneeded shame.

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #68


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 1:43 PM EST

    My logic is just fine. You’re blinded by your own arrogance..and inferiority complexes rooted in some self-disclosures you shared on here many moons ago. Get off the pedestal you want to claim because you didn’t rank as high in some family comparison. I value your opinions.

    Tsao felt my arguments regarding a sense we’re building safe systems where more can be “winners” as perfectly logical. And who gives a shit if they’re logical anyway? That’s part of the whole point. Sometimes things don’t happen within the realm your perfect “logical” world. That’s the beauty of nature. That’s the beauty of the unsung and the underdog. That’s the beauty of effort and perseverance when all the odds and expectations are stacked against you. Bury yourself in your logic and kill the dream and fight from that determination. Build walls around it and confine yourself to it. Nothing could be more Establishment. Protect yourself from ever giving someone perceived as unworthy the same stage because of probabilities and perceptions of the ‘norms’ of history as our “logic” of reference. How sad. How boring.

    I saw nothing in the logic of destroying our unique and unparalleled basketball tournament. I find no sharing of a viewpoint nor conclusion that it nothing with the old “what they don’t know, can’t hurt them” argument..Translation: What you never knew as a joy before can’t make a difference for your ignorance of it today. Live for the ultimate challenge. If you lose, you lose. We’re the losers for denying that opportunity based on ‘logic’ and ‘lowered bars’ and ‘cost savings’ achieved in the process of such sad perceptions of fairness rooted in predetermination and pigeonholed expectations.

    You can’t have that logic along with your arrogance in calling me the fool.

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #69


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 1:47 PM EST

    I find no sharing of a viewpoint nor conclusion in the old hackneyed overused “what they don’t know, can’t hurt them” argument..

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #70


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 1:50 PM EST

    You ]CAN] have that logic along with your arrogance in calling me the fool.

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #71


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 1:57 PM EST

    You’re just an old fart, Clarion. Age has clouded your logic. Maybe it’s all the years of air pollution pushing down from northwest winds over Gary…or those bug killers they spray on corn.

  • Geoff #72


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 2:20 PM EST

    Clarion, just for the record I agree with Harvard on that as well. What I disagree on is that the current high school system creates softness. I disagree that it robs the current student athletes of passion or dreams. Come ask any Class D basketball player in my state if they feel less of a champion or or don’t feel passion for their team and accomplishments because they didn’t face Portland HS in the quarterfinals. They will look at you with confusion, because that isn’t part of their reality. And they would laugh at you if you tried to insinuate they weren’t a real champion.

    There are 4 state title winners. Not 124, not 64, not 10. There are 4, so not everyone is getting a trophy.

    I made it very clear in my original post that from a fans perspective the changing of system was not a positive.

    I also agree with Tsao that society in general is creating softness with the everyone gets a trophy mentality, but this system does not fit into that category.

    You can cherry pick your arguments from my statements all you want Harvard, but I have addressed each and everyone of your points, and you can’t put words in my mouth because of that.

  • Geoff #73


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 2:27 PM EST

    What is more dream-crushing Harvard…

    Losing by 40 to Carmel, a school with 5000 kids to make a team from…

    Or winning a Class 1A title…

    Think real hard on this. Try to look at it from the perspective of the current student athlete and not your own or a fans perspective.

  • Geoff #74


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 2:40 PM EST

    Harvard, what I’m taking from this is that you’re willing to crush the dreams of 95% of kids to entertain yourself with the knowledge that 5% will get that ultimate champion experience.

  • Hoosier Clarion #75


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 3:27 PM EST

    Geoff, I am more than familiar with the record. That is why my info agrees with H4H.

    H4H, Yes I am an old fart but I live nowhere close to Gary. Just for accuracy.

  • Geoff #76


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 3:59 PM EST

    Clarion – So you believe that the current HS tournament system makes kids from small communities that are most likely very blue collar or farming communities “soft”, even though it is the only system they have played under….

    You believe that those kids lack passion and the ability to dream because they don’t get to prove themselves against Pike and Carmel and Lawrence North….

    And you believe that there is more to be gained by getting consistently clobbered by Cathedral, Ben Davis, and Columbus North than in winning a title against schools with similar sized enrollments?

    Not for the fans… But for the players?

    Because that is what Harvard is arguing that I don’t agree with.

    Interesting.

  • Hoosier Clarion #77


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 5:11 PM EST

    Geoff, that would be near H4H’s opinion, less the verbiage.

  • Geoff #78


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 5:35 PM EST

    Can I therefore assume that you believe basketball players from similarly small towns and schools in Maine, who grow up working on potato and blueberry farms, and digging clam beds and working on fishing boats in coastal towns are “soft” because they grew up playing against similarly small schools in the state tournament and not the Portlands, Bangors, and Lewistons?

    And that these kids from small Maine schools lack passion for basketball because of the system?

    Because clearly its the HS tournament system’s fault, and the system that breeds these traits? So if its true for the system in one state it must be true for the same system in another state…

  • Hoosier Clarion #79


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 5:55 PM EST

    I am not certain that assumption will correlate to Maine history if they have had class BB for decade upon decade.

  • Geoff #80


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 6:43 PM EST

    Then it isn’t the system, as Harvard is concluding… It is the perspective of the people within the system, which was my argument.

    I am absolutely positive that there are lots of people that can’t let go of the nostalgia of the original format, and that prevents them from getting excited about the current tournament, which in turn brings down attendance figures and FAN passion around the state.

    I am also sure that it isn’t coincidence that the “softness” and decline in interest of the indiana state tournament exactly coincides with other factors, such as: rise in popularity of AAU, the widespread access to the Internet, the popularity of video games, the new interest in X-Games type sports, and the explosion in cable offerings.

  • Chet #81


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 8:41 PM EST

    Harvard, in answer to your question, when my wife was in high school there were no class distinctions in swimming.

    My kids went to the only 4A (the largest NC division) school this far west in North Carolina (at the time, they’ve moved one or two up since then). I remember being a little irritated when a local 2A hurdler (for example, the same applied to any other sports) would be fawned over with loads of attention for her state championship and my daughter would be largely ignored for her third place state finish even though her time in the event would have crushed the field in the 2A championships.

    There is a difference. Sometimes a big difference. Sure, you can claim that a 1A wrestler could match up against their 4A counterpart because it’s an individual sport but when they’d meet up in an invitational it didn’t usually happen that way.

    Geoff, I don’t recall how long, or when, you lived in Indiana (I’m not questioning the validity of your “Hoosierness”) but I just want to throw this in. Back before class basketball a small town team would be hailed as heroes for decades simply for winning the open sectional (as they should have been). It was a big deal. You didn’t have to be one of the many state champs. I don’t even know if Milltown is even a school anymore but I’ll bet all the old timers in the town could name every player on the team that upset Jeffersonville with Mike and Steve Flynn back around 1970.

    You didn’t have to win state, winning the sectional was a big, big deal for smaller schools back then. From what I’ve seen in articles and pictures of crowds class basketball has been devastating to interest in the game within the state. It isn’t about “the times changing” as class proponents like to claim. Those crowds disappeared within a season or two after being there for decades. I don’t believe for a second that’s it’s because of the emergence of traveling ball, either. Fans don’t care about those teams. Basketball nerds (no offense intended) follow AAU teams. Moms and Dads, aunts and uncles, the kids at the local high school, and the guy that runs the hardware don’t. They care about teams that represent home with the local high school’s name on the jersey.

    Anyway, I’ve digressed. Better get back to the squabble you guys are busy having.

  • Hoosier Clarion #82


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 9:17 PM EST

    …and vice versa needs to be expressed in reference to your 2nd paragraph…

    You touched on some things in the 3rd paragraph that are probably secondary to the dilution of popularity of Hoosier Hysteria(although I do not live in that environment, so I can not herald that). I’ll list as to what I see as the main contributors.

    Class BB

    Sharing weekend nights for the scheduling of girls BB games(is a bigger distraction than most think)

    Some of the best in state HS talent going to Prep schools

    Indiana HS Soccer and Football

    AAU

    I do know 4 years after the installment of class BB I no longer had any enthusiasm for attending post season games. The competitiveness is not the same.

  • TsaoTsuG #83


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 9:44 PM EST

    Great argument and observations Harvard, all the way through. (The only place I disagree with you is in your comment to Clarion. I have no doubt he’s a good man). Solid.

    The Carmel/Pike comparison had my son trying to make me stop laughing. It’s like saying Englewood in south Chicago is like Wrigleyville or Hyde Park, just another neighborhood. Be forgiving Harvard; in spite of his protestations Geoff has not spent near enough time in Indiana to know the difference. Everything he writes confirms exactly who I thought he was. And, we can never write enough to give him the affirmation he seeks.

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #84


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 11:39 PM EST

    Clarion-

    I am sure you know my couple sentences in post #71 were completely tongue-in-cheek.

    Thanks for adding to the discussion, Chet. You supported my arguments with more eloquence than anything I could have offered up. I would like to send this entire thread IHSAA, but I somehow know it would never do any good.

    Tsao- Nothing to forgive with Geoff. No bigger deal than brothers scrapping. Geoff is a great fan of the sport. I imagine I do sound like someone stuck in the past. It’s easy to judge, but can he project? Given our advanced years many of us this select group with on foot in the grave, I find it rather amazing we still love to talk about this stuff. In thirty years I’m wondering if Geoff will be acting like the “fool” the same. At the end of the day, maybe that’s my strongest logic. The passion we all have for Indiana basketball was born from something incredibly unique.

    We will all one day exit the gym. The lights will go off our last memories. The crowds will eventually come back to a level that will suffice to make it all seem o.k…The fans and the players will move on with all the benefits of “what you don’t know, will never hurt you.”

  • Geoff #85


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 11:52 PM EST

    Tsao – c’mon man, you’re a smart guy… I’m assuming your son is too. How is it that you both read that and didn’t understand that I was making the point that Pike and Carmel are different… Not the same. I spelled it out clearly multiple times. The fact that your laughing at the exact point I’m making makes me laugh though, so thank you.

  • Geoff #86


    Friday, March 8, 2013 - 11:56 PM EST

    Chet – that’s the first time I’ve heard a logical counterpoint to any of my arguments. Thanks. I will take that into consideration. However, AGAIN, my point was never that Indiana’s one class system wasn’t special or create special memories. It is that it doesn’t create softies or lack of passion.

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #87


    Saturday, March 9, 2013 - 12:51 AM EST

    I think it still supports the ‘more winners’ is better mentality.

    Sign of the times. Give lil’ Billy a prize for just being lil’ Billy.

    Washington H.S. going into a regional or semi-state championship against Carmel or Pike or Lawrence North or North Central…could certainly add more of a test than anything he encountered during his high school career. AAU ball is not the same..Nor is it played with the pressures a big game in front of a big crowd.

    Pike could probably give a more than decent battle than half the cupcakes that were on our preseason schedule.

    Tougher and deeper teams can prepare you for tougher opponents. There is plenty of logic in losing chances to be tested in big games can lure a player into a false sense of his dominance..Not such a leap to claim that false sense(anointed mentality without the true tests)could equate to personality traits not appreciative of how it feels to have your prima donna butt handed back to you. There’s nothing character building in winning if it comes by way of shortchanging yourself the full array of competition you should not be denied.

    And how much would the Conseco(Bankers Life?)be filled if it was one championship game featuring Washington vs. Pike?

    I don’t know the stereotypes that are being painted here, but to my recollection Pike was never involved in a cover-up rape scandal involving a basketball team’s bus. Makes a 3-way calling scandal and weed smoking look like quite the bit less seedy in comparison.

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #88


    Saturday, March 9, 2013 - 3:28 AM EST

    Wouldn’t a simple solution to your problem be to take the winners of the 4 class state titles and have a mini-tourney for supremacy? Gives your David a taste of success and the chance to beat Goliath

    Might appeal to those cut from the same sick obsessions of Michael Vick and his dog fighting buddies..Of course, they enjoyed watching innately “soft” and harmless yellow Labradors being experiments to the frenzied fun of a starving and angry Pit Bull ripping its flesh to shreds for mere practice and delight to witness a blood bath.

    Yup, I’m beginning to understand your logic. Pitting(no pun intended) Washington against Pike would be quite the blood bath. Best leave the safety of class in place.

    Our old one tournament system was simply a blood bath waiting to happen for many. It wasn’t very kind to the all Lassies and Old Yellers when they would inevitably meet up with the Pit Bulls in a cage of no escape. Scars..a lifetime of scars. Many contests should have just been stopped at halftime. Much like Duke against IU at a regional in 2002…Should have been stopped at halftime. The mauling was just brutal.

    We did the humane thing with instilling class basketball. We turned it into equal and serious friendly fun.

    Geoff displays his ultimate vision for the evolution of Indiana high school hoops. And look at the size of the crowd! Can’t you just feel the passion? And nobody got their feelings hurt.

  • Ron #89


    Saturday, March 9, 2013 - 8:19 AM EST

    Whats with all the Pike talk? Who Martinsville plays today in the Regional. Too many big-city boys here.

  • Ron #90


    Saturday, March 9, 2013 - 9:06 AM EST

    See next yrs non-conference?
    ACC road
    Notre Dame in Indy
    UConn – BC – Washington

  • Geoff #91


    Saturday, March 9, 2013 - 9:40 AM EST

    Typical Harvard… You can’t come up with any kind of response that makes a shred of sense so you go to one that full of hyperbole, sarcasm, and fluff…

    Your last post has so little to do with what we’ve been talking about that I won’t address it more than to say what I just have.

    I will address some of your post #87 since you made an effort to do more than entertain there.

    1) the class system is not a sign of the times…. It has been going on for decades around the country. Far longer than righties have been complaining about lefties and the everyone gets a trophy mentality, which has now become a less politically motivated argument and more main stream to include non-righties like you Harv.

    2) your absolutely right that good 4A would be a better test for a Washington than most of the Schools in their own class (3A, right?). And I’m sure that many 3′s could beat 4′s, 2′s could beat 3′s, 1′s could beat 2′s, etc. It’s not the single step down in class that creates much inequality. It’s 2 and 3 steps that create mismatches that make for lopsided outcomes more often than not. And if the tournament was just the best teams from each class in a trimmed down version then you’d have more equality, but when you end up with mid-seeded small schools against high-seeded big schools all throughout the tournament that’s not accomplishing much. Since Milan’s victory in 1954 no school with enrollment of under 500 has won a state championship.

    3) I was hoping I wouldn’t have to spell out the AAU thing, but I guess it isn’t as obvious as I thought… AAU is definitely not the same, but when you have kids who play hundreds of games a year and travel all over the country, and you have AAU coaches who become important decision makers in the top players recruitment process, all of that dilutes the importance of the HS season in the kids eyes. I’m not saying its unimportant, but it holds a different importance than 30 years ago. If you’re looking for reasons you’re seeing a lessening of passion from the players, start there.

    4) if Pike could beat half the D1 teams IU schedules in the non-conference then they shouldn’t be playing Fort Wayne Canterbury in the state tournament.

    5) here’s the deal… What % of HS kids go on to be college players? Now that % shrinks with each class level you go down… So how many 1A players get a basketball scholarship? Or go on to play non-scholarship college basketball? If you want to make the argument (which you seem to hinting at) that Zeller would more prepared for the next level if he’d played more 4A’s then you’re correct, but that logic doesn’t work for the 97% of kids from small schools who won’t play at the next level and who’s last experience will be getting schmucked by 40 in front of 12,000 people. Those kids aren’t prima donnas and those kids don’t get the chance to dream because they know that no school their size ever does squat in the tournament… Or at least for the last 60 years.

    6) I don’t know why the scandals have any relevance to the system.

    7) FINALLY… I have nothing against the 1-class tournament. I think it’s great and unique, and all in all I could personally give much of a rats ass about fairness. If IHSAA decided to bring it back that would be great in my eyes. However, don’t give me this crap about creating softness or being responsible for a lack of passion or crushing of dreams. I have been part of the multi-class system as a player, a coach, and a fan, and I know first-hand that those things aren’t inherent to the system. It functions perfectly fine up here and doesn’t lead to any of the crap you bring up.

  • Geoff #92


    Saturday, March 9, 2013 - 10:22 AM EST

    One more FINALLY… My vision for Indiana HS basketball is irrelevant. But I’ll say this, in Maine we have no problem supporting our kids, teams, and communities at the state tournament, regardless of class. The games take place in 3 or 4 locales – the Cumberland County Civic Center (Portland), Portland Expo, the Augusta Civic Center, and the Bangor Auditorium – the 4 largest venues in the state, which all hold many 1000′s of spectators. We pack those gyms with regularity even in the opening rounds. We also live broadcast the games on TV and live stream the games on the local newspaper websites, and have expanded the coverage every year. Over 11,000 hours of live online coverage was viewed for the Western Maine Quarterfinals alone.

    And despite your stereotyping, most Mainers relish winter, especially in more rural areas. They ski, snowmobile, snowshoe, ice fish, skate, etc, etc, etc… So you’re statement insinuating that you could pack a gym in Maine with squirrel fighting in the winter is what Tsao should be laughing at.

    If Hoosiers can’t support their kids, teams, and communities because you changed systems then that says a lot about the fans…

    Here’s your lack of passion and fan support…

    http://youtu.be/bikW5YT-goo

  • Chet #93


    Saturday, March 9, 2013 - 10:55 AM EST

    Geoff, just for perspective, however, that looks like it would have been about half to 2/3 the crowd at any Tuesday evening game in Jeffersonville in the ’70s (figuring a sold out 5000+ at every game at the time).

    I watched a video of them trouncing the #1 team in KY the other day. Nowhere near a full gym.

  • AWinAZ #94


    Saturday, March 9, 2013 - 11:50 AM EST

    Quite the lively debate….

    The state legislature & the IHSAA should be ashamed. First off, the listened to Knights testimony supporting class Bball and then they passed it. That decision clearly discounted the tradition and lore of Indiana high school basketball.

    The clear solution is to have 4 class state champs and an overall state champ. One more weekend added to the schedule, Fri and Sat games, packed Hinkle Fieldhouse, giving David one annual parting shot at Goliath.

  • Geoff #95


    Saturday, March 9, 2013 - 12:06 PM EST

    Chet, that was the Augusta Civic Center, which seats 6,700 people and it was packed to the top…

    If people don’t go out to watch Tuesday night regular season games anymore I’m not sure what that has to with the tournament… To me it says more about the fans.

  • Ron #96


    Saturday, March 9, 2013 - 3:14 PM EST

    AWinAz- Last year the IHSAA did a round-Indiana workshops asking the schools/coaches/public if the current format should be changed. Don’t remember the numbers but it was pretty much a consensus to leave the different class structure for the tourney. Think the IHSAA was surprised by the results.

  • Ron #97


    Saturday, March 9, 2013 - 3:15 PM EST

    And that Martinsville – Pike Regional game did not go well for Martinsville.

  • TsaoTsuG #98


    Saturday, March 9, 2013 - 4:58 PM EST

    Geoff, your arguments carry the same arrogance they always have. The one thing that does not change is that you argue it from the same stand point of opinion that is completely devoid of knowledge and continues to argue for a logic you demand based only on false and generally empty assumptions.

    What is most disappointing (yes, and frustrating)about you is that it seemed you were changing that approach and joining the rest of the Scoop to exchange views. But, need is not only ‘be the only one right’ but, along with your argument, to diminish the argument on the other side.

    So, from Maine you argue against one of the valuable pieces of culture we from Indiana take pride in- the fundamental belief that size does not matter and, as early as in high school, we were (once) immersed in a tournament of big vs little, country vs. urban, metropolitan vs. rural, inner city vs. suburb…all equal. Let the games begin and let the best- in fact the very ‘bestest’, be crowned the one and only champion – THE Champion.

    It is Indiana. Books were written on the stuff. One of the most celebrated sports movies in history still fills theaters and leads TV movie ratings. I am talking, of course of Hoosiers. From the same place as another great American story about the spirit that makes a Champion,’ Breaking Away’.

    Yet, you come and joing us,…to tell us about the inadequacy of our institutions and the cultural bonds that holds us together wherever we Hoosiers are. But, while proclaiming yourself a Hoosier, you come to tells is our quaint traditions need adapting if it is to be adequate. According to whom? Ask Harvard, ask Chet. Ask any Hoosier who wears the dust picked up in a basketball court built on the side of a barn.

    Hoosier exceptionalism!, not jus basketball. Was it also a mistake that the most dominant sports team in history, the Indiana University swimming team of the 1960-1970′s under Coach Jim Counsilman amd Coach Hobie Billingsley that produced a Mark Spit and dozens of other ‘world’s best swimmer and divers’ in a landlocked swimming pool 200 miles from the biggest body of water. Or a Hoosier soccer program that routinely wins the National Championship under two generations of coaches from the same family, all home grown in Bloomington- likely the only real piece of ‘American lore’ in the world’s most popular sport? An Indiana that produced the greatest coaching mind of an entire generation (doesn’t matter whether you like his personality or not)-we’re talking basketball mind and setting the curve and achievement). All of it home grown, here, in an atmosphere of challenge and an environment that sweats Champions.

    And, where from an early age we learn that the Will is formed in the struggle not the accommodation. That losing is merely a syllable in winning. Struggling and winning are a part of our State. And that losing is only a syllable in the word Champion.

    But then, Geoff, while you yourself have admitted you had little to do with this culture except as a visitor, but profess a respect and admiration while at the same time spitting out instructions to build it better, as if somehow what we have built in Indiana is a vision og Thomas, The Train. You are a Hoosier fan, you tell us, and indeed we welcome that, but you have to understand that our pride comes from having built this great university; dollar by dollar, brick by brick, faculty member by faculty member (yes, including both your parents who proudly serve us), trophy by trophy, graduate by graduate, honor by honor into one of America’s great institutions.

    But you do so with that East coast, private school arrogance to point out to us that ‘we Hoosiers are ok but, have a lot to be desired by your East Coast, Establishment standards.

    Draw a concentric circle around Bloomington. You don’t have to drive more than three hours in any direction from Bloomington to find damned near every basketball worthy institution in the basketball history books. Each year our population grows from the number of college coaches and scouts who come to this Hoosier State to find the next ‘great one’ to stock their Chamber of Commerce college teams with which they hope to draw visitors.

    Yeah, we can admire and understand, even open ourselves up to your wish to share it with us…; but, do not to come and summarily reject the tradition and institutions that are all and pure Hoosiers.

    Engage us…sure! Ask us about why we love, idolize and defend a big old airplane hangar like Butler’s Hinkle Fieldhouse; why we think that if you are bothering to crown a Champion you crown One…the One who earned it- big, little, short, tall, numerous or picked from three farm families through DNA but ALL HOOSIER and OURS!

    No, we don’t celebrate by classes in Indiana. Hoosiers know it is merely the accommodation of the IHSAA to politics and marketing so that Mrs. Fingleburger’s (a wannabe from Virginia married to a Hoosier farmer kid can get a kiss on the forehead and his mother can wear her private school (now two sizes too small) cheerleading sweater from the days she used to rub up against the team captain in the back seat of his Fort Wayne built Studebaker, while she walked up to receive the Class BBB-B trophy for 5’6 and under.

    But it ain’t the Champ and Hoosiers. Hoosiers know who the Champ and that’s the one they give the Trophy to. And the Champ is the team ‘that wins it all’, the Hoosier Class champ who beat everybody else.

    Geoff…time to understand who we Hoosiers are. Not very politically correct, just right! It begins in the heart…one Heart. And it is in our DNA. One class, Hoosier!

  • psych #99


    Saturday, March 9, 2013 - 5:08 PM EST

    DISCLAIMER: I AM ABOUT TO WRITE ABOUT HOCKEY AGAIN, SO HARVARD, DO NOT READ THIS.

    A little late to the party, but definitely an interesting debate that I was able to catch up on today.

    There are two classes in Minnesota for hockey, A and AA. The top 64 hockey playing high schools in the state by enrollment are automatically placed in class AA (highest class), while the remaining 92 hockey playing high schools are placed in A. The catch is that A schools are allowed to play at the AA if they so choose, which has led to a few private city schools (Minneapolis/St. Paul area) who are originally classified to play as ‘A’ to opt up to ‘AA’. These schools include Benilde-St. Margaret’s, Academy of Holy Angels, and Hill-Murray, who are all powerhouse AA hockey programs. Minnesotans HATE (and I mean HATE) the private schools in class A who dominate the state tournament every year (Breck and St. Thomas Academy come to mind) because they think that these schools should use their “opt up” provision so that the small public schools in ‘A’ have a chance to compete for a state title (completely the opposite logic I see used on here). Luckily, St. Thomas Academy is moving up to AA next year. THe reason I am using this is because Minnesota rivals Indiana in terms of its rabidity for its “native” sport, with many of the top college hockey players in the country hailing from Minnesota. Geoff, if you are not a hockey fan, I strongly suggest attending Alfond Arena (University of Maine) for a game next season. The University of Maine hockey program has been on a bit of a downward spiral the past few years due to their crappy coach, but Alfond Arena is still considered one of the most imposing arenas in all of college hockey for opposing teams/fans. It may get you hooked, Geoff. Alas, I digress.

    Now, a few things. First, are schools in lower classes in Indiana allowed to “opt up” to higher classes in basketball? For instance, could Zeller’s high school team (Washington?) be allowed to move up to class 4A if they so desired? If not, then how come? Secondly, I once again side with Geoff on this issue. While I love the cinderella story as much as anyone, I think if you asked today’s kids if they would rather get blown out in the sectionals by 40 against a school 10x their size, or compete for a state championship, I think they would choose the latter, and not because of the class system inherently creating soft players who would rather have a trophy than…nothing, I suppose.

  • Geoff #100


    Saturday, March 9, 2013 - 6:47 PM EST

    Tsao – that was really time consuming… Unfortunately I don’t think you were paying very good attention to my posts. It started with you thinking that I was comparing Pike and Carmel as similar (I was very careful to state the opposite) and now you spend 15 paragraphs proving you weren’t paying attention to any of my points. I have NO ISSUE with the 1 class system. I think/ thought it was great. It has its strengths and weaknesses. So does the 4-class system. I have no problem with Hoosiers having a problem with change in systems… If it goes back to the 1-class system then I’m all for it.

    My issue is that Harvard throws out ridiculous statements that he can provide not a single shred of proof for. I can rebut those statements with experience and evidence. Sorry if that comes across as arrogant.

    I don’t need to be the only right one – I ALWAYS make sure to point out good and logical arguments, such as the one Chet made in post #81. I made sure to point out that there are areas of Harvard’s viewpoint (and your’s and Clarion’s) that I agreed with (post #72).

    You can paint me as arrogant and stubborn, but I am the only one of the 3 (Harvard, Tsao, Clarion) that ever will come off a stance if shown evidence to the contrary of my arguments. Actually Harvard has done that on a couple occasions as well, though not in this debate.

    Now a few things about me that you also have wrong…

    - I went to HS in Texas, not the East Coast
    - I’ve never attended a private school, including college
    - I am very much the opposite of politically correct, but I can live in that world when I need to

    And a few more things…

    - unless you have a building named after you on campus I can guarantee my family has put more dollars into the university than you and yours… Since you want to try to throw that around like it means something.
    - you don’t need to tell me about the pride and where it comes from… I have 4 parents, 2 grandparents, and countless other relatives that have degrees from IU that have taught me already.
    - It’s laughable that you think I actually think Hoosiers have a lot to be desired compared to my Establishment standards. I am the one that is arguing against your kids being soft. Harvard is saying they are! He is saying they lack passion and the ability to dream. I’m saying that’s nonsense!

    Anytime anyone wants to actually address what is I’m saying, and not what preconceived notions you have of what I’m saying then I guess we can start to move forward.

  • Geoff #101


    Saturday, March 9, 2013 - 6:51 PM EST

    Tsao – and I don’t know if what Ron says is true or not, but if it is then your statements in paragraph 13 & 14 don’t seem to hold much water.

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #102


    Saturday, March 9, 2013 - 7:09 PM EST

    Ron’s statements may very well be true. There are likely far more voices fighting for the coziness a complacent system if it put’s trophies in their high school cases.

    The many that grew out of one tournament era have seen very little protest from various schools, coaches, and administrators over the past 15 years since class basketball was swept under our traditions. The smaller class schools have likely grown into the mentality that a trophy in the hallway trophy case is better than none at all. And if the IHSAA had no need to listen to any public opinion when they changed to the class system, why on earth would they believe those in the IHSAA could give a crap now(especially 15 years in and after many the lower class schools have relished in the joys of anointing themselves ultimate champions when they are not)?

    No surprise to me that many have been lured into the attentions and trappings of feeling you’ve achieved more than you really have. People will fight to the death for that delusion(especially when it involves offspring). But it’s not what Indiana basketball used to be about.

  • Geoff #103


    Saturday, March 9, 2013 - 7:27 PM EST

    Harvard, will you join me on my crusade to topple the current college system and consolidate D1, D2, and D3. If we can just set the example from above then maybe the IHSAA will see the light!

  • Not so fast my friend #104


    Saturday, March 9, 2013 - 8:08 PM EST

    TTG,

    Do you have a bad leg, that may require using a cane?
    Have you suffered with this condition for a long time?

  • Ron #105


    Sunday, March 10, 2013 - 9:12 AM EST

    My comments Re; tourney format – I was right and I was wrong.

    July 6, 2012, the IHSAA held 11 meetings in various districts concerning current multi class tourneys.

    68% of individuals want single class tourneys
    vs 32% wanting to continue multi class.

    Yet data review from only school officials/coaches/players data was showed;

    77% school administrators for current multi-class
    79% athletic directors for current multi-class
    55% coaches for multi-class
    72% student players for multi-class

  • Geoff #106


    Sunday, March 10, 2013 - 9:39 AM EST

    Interesting Data. So fans overwhelmingly want single-class, while participants of the process decidedly like multi-class.

    Ron, do they break down the results any further? Can we see how participants voted by class?

    It would really be telling to see how 1A and 2A participants voted. Since they are the ones put at a natural competitive disadvantage by the single-class system.

    I think we can definitely come to the conclusion that the fans believe the single-class system is more entertaining.

    What’s less clear is if the data suggests that players:

    A) have already had their ability to dream crushed

    Or

    B) always wanted a fairer system that gave them a chance for similar success and achievement

    And/Or

    C) don’t like the idea of getting crushed by 40 in front of 12,000 fans

  • Hoosier Clarion #107


    Sunday, March 10, 2013 - 10:06 AM EST

    D)Fans will not enthusiastically or blindly support a diluted product provided by a system they do not like

  • Geoff #108


    Sunday, March 10, 2013 - 10:46 AM EST

    Just found the link…

    http://www.ihsaa.org/Portals/0/ihsaa/documents/news%20media/2012-13/Class%20Basketball%20Study%20Final%20Report.pdf

    Upon reading, I have a few other thoughts.

    1) was the question(s) asked at the town meetings framed exactly the same as the written question given to participants?

    2) there were FAR more participants polled, and votes cast, than community members (514 versus 7236), so those results more accurately reflect the attitude of its constituents.

    3) it’s my experience, although it may be different in Indiana, that town meetings are disproportionately attended by people of at least parental age, and often older citizens, but certainly not well-represented by the younger generations. Therefore my assumption is that “fan” vote is highly skewed in the favor of older citizens. But that’s just an assumption.

    4) it is a sociological fact that satisfied people turn out in fewer numbers than dissatisfied people to discuss an issue (See protest theory studies, not to be confused with “voting” studies of satisfied people). Often times people satisfied with the current issue situation aren’t even aware the issue is on the table because they have no reason to be actively seeking current information. While people who are dissatisfied are more motivated to find information and actively seek ways to change it. Therefore, another assumption of mine is that there was a natural bias in the crowds that showed up to the meetings, and it isn’t necessarily representative of the community at large.

    5) piggy-backing on #4, the “fan” vote was an elective poll, while the participant vote was comprehensive. If the poll had been mailed out to homes in every community and asked to be voluntarily an anonymously returned, would the results have been different? My assumption is it wouldn’t be as extreme in the favor of a single-class tournament because proportionately more people satisfied with the status quo would have been polled.

    6) I find it interesting that the only 2 fan communities that were in favor of a multi-class system were Merriville (4A) and Vincennes Lincoln (3A). It begs the question, what are the motivations behind larger schools wanting to keep things separated? (Harvard, I’m sure you have a controversial answer for that). And while I didn’t look to clarify the class-size of each of the other 9 communities, I’m sure that 1A and 2A communiities were represented in the fan poll, and all other communities polled were overwhelmingly in favor of a single-class system.

  • Ron #109


    Sunday, March 10, 2013 - 11:05 AM EST

    I would guess (C). I did not read the complet report, just the condensed media summary.

    Take away Milan and maybe a couple of others it’s always the ‘big school’ that end up with the talent. Look at it from the school administration view and I think it’s understandable – a chance for glory and name recognition with the class system.

    Steve Alfred story. Sam Alfred was for a very short period of time the head coach at Martinsville. Guess he realized very quickly that Martinsville did not have the supporting team muscle for his son. Rather quickly left for New Castle(?). If he stayed in Martinsville his son may have been lost in mediocrity. I was living in Fl at the time so my understanding is second-hand.

    This year Martinsville had a kid transfer in from Park Tudor which had won the last two whatever class championship. Kid was 17-0 in tourney play. Got beat by Pike yesterday big-time. 17-1.

    I believe IHSAA has a thing where if a team wins the championship two times in a roll, they move up a class.

    IU game today (change of subject) will be telling. Hate to see Iu going into the BIG10 tourney with a must-win thing going. Looks like every BIG team is stronger and playing well. Hate to go against Purdue or Iowa again.

  • Hoosier Clarion #110


    Sunday, March 10, 2013 - 11:42 AM EST

    The only poll/vote/info/fact worthy to be criteria is the ever dwindling attendance for a weakened, fan rejected format. Hoosier Hysteria as it flourished for decades is dead.

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #111


    Sunday, March 10, 2013 - 11:57 AM EST

    I think we should only let a 1A, 2A, or 3A school move up a class if they can prove they’ve implemented affirmative action programs and have made sincere attempts to bring minority families into their communities.

    Schools would have to show statistical evidence that their community was striving to have their population equally representative of the number of minority students currently on the basketball team. Total enrollment numbers in the school would have to be within a 10% variance above or below the representation of minority athletes on the school’s sports teams. If they could not prove such parallels, then they would be put on probation and knocked down a class.

    We would call this program…’LeBron goes to Milan: Class Basketball minus Protectionism.’

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #112


    Sunday, March 10, 2013 - 12:09 PM EST

    Just so we’re clear here…This could also be called….

    Cody goes to Pike: Class Basketball minus Protectionism.

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #113


    Sunday, March 10, 2013 - 1:11 PM EST

    Hoosier Clarion-

    Your post #110..Spot on.

    “Hoosier Hysteria as it flourished for decades is dead.”

    It is dead. Yet, rosters will be manipulated. Protectionism will flourish. The system will be corrupt and manipulated..It will hide bigger inequalities that become an embarrassment and contrary to what our hopes always attached to our one basketball tournament.

    And say what you will..It builds complacency and anointing schools/programs/individuals that have no real bragging rights. It homogenizes competition while making no effort to truly bring communities together. It fails to implement honest diversity in our hearts and protects populations from true examinations themselves/their talent/their openness/ and their belief systems.

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #114


    Sunday, March 10, 2013 - 1:13 PM EST

    I have no problem with Pike beating the living daylights out of Washington. Just as Washington has no problem their average SAT score likely beating the daylights out of Pike.

  • TsaoTsuG #115


    Sunday, March 10, 2013 - 3:23 PM EST

    Funny, when I was growing up during the days of Oscar Robertson, Willie Merriwether, Bo Crain, Louie Dampier and the Williams cousins, Pike was the country…the deep rural country. 71st. Street was two lanes without much of an embankment and North Central was just then being thought about as Indianapolis began to grow beyond the White River and barely crossed State Road 100.

    We use to leave the two lane 71st street onto the dirt roads and park in the high weeds and corn fields to do what we did. Pike was really a small country school. It did not begin its growth until the sixties and seventies with the growth of Weir Cook Airport and the building of I-465 near what is now Ben Davis and the industrial parks attracted the developers and began to build housing on the farm lands to accommodate the communities, especially in northwest Indianapolis (both white and black).

    It is almost strange to conceive of Pike as a ‘big school’, even more so as a top athletic school since it was then rarely considered anything near a ‘power’ and not frequently scheduled against Indianapolis schools like Tech, Shortridge, Broad Ripple, Crispus Attucks, Washington, Cathedral, etc. It’s path to greatness is a great story for the entire community of Indianapolis. Like Pike, the same was true of Mooresville, Avon (where the former great UCLA coach skated near the pond that can be seen just SW of IND67 used to skate when it froze over)….only Ben Davis and Warren Central in the southwest side were beginning to grow into a ‘power’, though both were still ‘smaller’ schools… And, none of the ‘bigger’ school looked forward to competing against them in the sectionals or regionals. Size had very little to do with competitiveness.

    One can argue the logic of the multiplee ‘class’ state tournament (especially if you are or were outside the state of Indiana at the time). The truth of it will never change (as counter intuitive as it may seem). From smallest to ‘big’, it belonged to the people of this state. The survey’s, of course the administrators of the schools and the athletic programs support the multiple class tournaments. It makes their jobs easier by multiplying the number of State champions and justifying the number of awards. As with most everything, dumbing down (aka as lowering standards to an ever lowering- and very vocal- ‘average’ usually will find its devotees in the “up from sucky” crowd. It is easier to multiply championships (and therefore class ‘champions’ than to achieve being a Champion. But, one thing we cannot do with the social engineering behind it; it does not make for a better teams, schools or society as it does not make for better people.

    Interesting, the arguments backing the multiple class tournament here (I think…I could be wrong) seems to have been written by individuals who never participated in the Indiana single class tournament or who did not have family who did. There was fairness and equality in the honest competition of all against all. The only arguments I would regularly hear then for multiple class, as I recall, came from schools who were regularly beaten by the Crispus Attucks’, Shortridges’, Techs’, Gary Froebel, West and Roosevelt, East Chicago Washington, Kokomo, Anderson, Richmond…. and demanded ‘their own class’. Don’t kid yourself, that argument covered up and hid a racial argument which the IHSAA, its commissioner Phil Eskew and the Board were happy to acknowledge and make a reality. That, was racism at its most discreet and efficient self.

    But, while it existed, the single all against all one-class tournament was the model of true competition emerging from the closest available- then and now- to a democratic, egalitarian society based on equity (a word different in content than equality).

    For a great, great read of high schools, athletics and your dad’s (or grandpop’s) Indianapolis in the 50′s and 60′s read Dan Wakefield’s ‘Going All the Way’. Whatever side of the argument you are in, you’ll enjoy it.

  • Ron #116


    Sunday, March 10, 2013 - 3:49 PM EST

    While we’re waiting..Question for you Indy-town old timers. Anybody remember “The Mart”? Somewhere around the old Washington Street near or at the White River Park?

  • TsaoTsuG #117


    Sunday, March 10, 2013 - 4:39 PM EST

    Yeah, I sort of remember it,…and the radio commercials for it.

  • Harvard for Hillbillies #118


    Sunday, March 10, 2013 - 7:49 PM EST

    The only arguments I would regularly hear then for multiple class, as I recall, came from schools who were regularly beaten by the Crispus Attucks’, Shortridges’, Techs’, Gary Froebel, West and Roosevelt, East Chicago Washington, Kokomo, Anderson, Richmond…. and demanded ‘their own class’. Don’t kid yourself, that argument covered up and hid a racial argument which the IHSAA, its commissioner Phil Eskew and the Board were happy to acknowledge and make a reality. That, was racism at its most discreet and efficient self.

    Tsao-

    Your post touches(and particularly the specific paragraph I highlighted in blockquote)on the real ugliness and heart of the matter. And ‘classing it up’ was never rooted(in my opinion)in anything classy in terms of character and intentions those behind its implementation.

  • TsaoTsuG #119


    Sunday, March 10, 2013 - 8:13 PM EST

    Yeah Harvey Banners…I have a deep love for Indiana. It really became home. I used to think a lot about that when traveling overseas and how fortunate I was that my father found our home here. But there were moments, events, places and people that reflected and personified this issue. Even half a century later there is a bad taste when I recall them.

    But then, I also remember all those beautiful places and people and moments that were so good and filled my life. Usually, they came in pairs.

Scoop Poll:

How many games will IU basketball win in 2014-15

  • 16-19 (45%, 145 Votes)
  • 20-23 (36%, 117 Votes)
  • 15 or less (12%, 38 Votes)
  • 24 or more (7%, 24 Votes)

Total Voters: 324

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IU vs Texas Southern men\'s basketball

Men's Basketball Player Pages

[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/mens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_blackmon1.jpg]1460James Blackmon, Jr.
Chris Howell | Herald-Times Indiana University Men's Basketball head shots in Bloomington, Ind., Tuesday, Sept. 9, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers guard James Blackmon Jr. (1)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/mens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_zeisloft1.jpg]1260Nick Zeisloft
Chris Howell | Herald-Times Indiana University Men's Basketball head shots in Bloomington, Ind., Tuesday, Sept. 9, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers guard Nick Zeisloft (2)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/mens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_hoetzel1.jpg]1000Max Hoetzel
Chris Howell | Herald-TimesIndiana University Men's Basketball head shots in Bloomington, Ind., Tuesday, Sept. 9, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers forward Max Hoetzel (3)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/mens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_johnson1.jpg]920Robert Johnson
Chris Howell | Herald-Times Indiana University Men's Basketball head shots in Bloomington, Ind., Tuesday, Sept. 9, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers guard Robert Johnson (4)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/mens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_williams1.jpg]920Troy Williams
Chris Howell | Herald-Times Indiana University Men's Basketball head shots in Bloomington, Ind., Tuesday, Sept. 9, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers forward Troy Williams (5)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/mens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_burton1.jpg]690Ryan Burton
Chris Howell | Herald-Times Indiana University Men's Basketball head shots in Bloomington, Ind., Tuesday, Sept. 9, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers forward Ryan Burton (10)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/mens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_yogi1.jpg]800Yogi Ferrell
Chris Howell | Herald-TimesIndiana University Men's Basketball head shots in Bloomington, Ind., Tuesday, Sept. 9, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers guard Yogi Ferrell (11)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/mens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_perea1.jpg]800Hanner Mosquera-Perea
Chris Howell | Herald-Times Indiana University Men's Basketball head shots in Bloomington, Ind., Tuesday, Sept. 9, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers forward Hanner Mosquera-Perea (12)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/mens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_robinson1.jpg]710Stanford Robinson
Chris Howell | Herald-Times Indiana University Men's Basketball head shots in Bloomington, Ind., Tuesday, Sept. 9, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers guard Stanford Robinson (22)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/mens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_ritchie1.jpg]660Nate Ritchie
Chris Howell | Herald-Times Indiana University Men's Basketball head shots in Bloomington, Ind., Tuesday, Sept. 9, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers forward Nate Ritchie (23)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/mens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_holt1.jpg]710Emmitt Holt
Chris Howell | Herald-Times Indiana University Men's Basketball head shots in Bloomington, Ind., Tuesday, Sept. 9, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers forward Emmitt Holt (25)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/mens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_hartman1.jpg]780Collin Hartman
Chris Howell | Herald-Times Indiana University Men's Basketball head shots in Bloomington, Ind., Tuesday, Sept. 9, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers forward Collin Hartman (30)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/mens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_priller1.jpg]860Tim Priller
Chris Howell | Herald-Times Indiana University Men's Basketball head shots in Bloomington, Ind., Tuesday, Sept. 9, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers forward Tim Priller (35)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/mens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_april1.jpg]950Jeremiah April
Chris Howell | Herald-Times Indiana University Men's Basketball head shots in Bloomington, Ind., Tuesday, Sept. 9, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers center Jeremiah April (44)

Women's Basketball Player Pages

[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/womens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_walter1.jpg]420Jess Walter
Chris Howell | Herald-TimesIndiana University women's basketball portraits at Assembly Hall in Bloomington, Ind., Thursday, October 23, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers guard Jess Walter (2)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/womens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_buss1.jpg]1080Tyra Buss
Chris Howell | Herald-TimesIndiana University women's basketball portraits at Assembly Hall in Bloomington, Ind., Thursday, October 23, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers guard Tyra Buss (3)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/womens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_brooks1.jpg]580Larryn Brooks
Chris Howell | Herald-TimesIndiana University women's basketball portraits at Assembly Hall in Bloomington, Ind., Thursday, October 23, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers guard Larryn Brooks (5)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/womens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_agler1.jpg]530Taylor Agler
Chris Howell | Herald-TimesIndiana University women's basketball portraits at Assembly Hall in Bloomington, Ind., Thursday, October 23, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers guard Taylor Agler (10)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/womens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_bell2.jpg]430Nicole Bell
Chris Howell | Herald-TimesIndiana University women's basketball portraits at Assembly Hall in Bloomington, Ind., Thursday, October 23, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers guard Nicole Bell (12)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/womens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_stratman1.jpg]430Liz Stratman
Chris Howell | Herald-TimesIndiana University women's basketball portraits at Assembly Hall in Bloomington, Ind., Thursday, October 23, 2014.
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/womens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_hulls1.jpg]400Kaila Hulls
Chris Howell | Herald-TimesIndiana University women's basketball portraits at Assembly Hall in Bloomington, Ind., Thursday, October 23, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers guard/forward Kaila Hulls (15)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/womens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_mcbride1.jpg]420Karlee McBride
Chris Howell | Herald-TimesIndiana University women's basketball portraits at Assembly Hall in Bloomington, Ind., Thursday, October 23, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers guard Karlee McBride (21)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/womens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_gassion1.jpg]530Alexis Gassion
Chris Howell | Herald-TimesIndiana University women's basketball portraits at Assembly Hall in Bloomington, Ind., Thursday, October 23, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers guard Alexis Gassion (23)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/womens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_muensterman1.jpg]360Maura Meunsterman
Chris Howell | Herald-TimesIndiana University women's basketball portraits at Assembly Hall in Bloomington, Ind., Thursday, October 23, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers guard Maura Muensterman (31)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/womens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_mize1.jpg]320Andrea Mize
Chris Howell | Herald-TimesIndiana University women's basketball portraits at Assembly Hall in Bloomington, Ind., Thursday, October 23, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers guard Andrea Mize (32)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/womens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_cahill1.jpg]310Amanda Cahill
Chris Howell | Herald-TimesIndiana University women's basketball portraits at Assembly Hall in Bloomington, Ind., Thursday, October 23, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers forward Amanda Cahill (33)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/womens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_jakubicek1.jpg]310Claire Jakubicek
Chris Howell | Herald-TimesIndiana University women's basketball portraits at Assembly Hall in Bloomington, Ind., Thursday, October 23, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers forward Claire Jakubicek (34)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/womens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_leikem1.jpg]320Lyndsay Leikem
Chris Howell | Herald-TimesIndiana University women's basketball portraits at Assembly Hall in Bloomington, Ind., Thursday, October 23, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers forward Lyndsay Leikem (40)
[img src=http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/flagallery/womens-basketball-player-pages/thumbs/thumbs_anderson1.jpg]320Jenn Anderson
Chris Howell | Herald-TimesIndiana University women's basketball portraits at Assembly Hall in Bloomington, Ind., Thursday, October 23, 2014.Indiana Hoosiers center Jenn Anderson (43)
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