Brad Stevens to the Celtics

170 comments by   |   Wednesday, July 3, 2013 - 6:17 pm EDT

Here’s the official AP release of this afternoon’s stunning turn of events.

Celtics hire Butler’s Brad Stevens as coach

By JIMMY GOLEN
AP Sports Writer

BOSTON — The Boston Celtics keep getting younger — on the coaching staff as well as the court.

Less than a week after agreeing to trade Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce to the Brooklyn Nets — and 10 days after shipping coach Doc Rivers to the Los Angeles Clippers — the Celtics hired Butler’s Brad Stevens as their next head coach.

Stevens, 36, twice led the Bulldogs to the NCAA title game, but has no NBA experience as a player or coach.

“Brad and I share a lot of the same values,” Celtics general manager Danny Ainge said in a release. “Though he is young, I see Brad as a great leader who leads with impeccable character and a strong work ethic. His teams always play hard and execute on both ends of the court. Brad is a coach who has already enjoyed lots of success, and I look forward to working with him towards Banner 18.”

Stevens has spent the last six years as the coach of Butler, leading the Bulldogs to back-to-back national championship games in 2010 and ’11. He has a career winning percentage of .772 and never won fewer than 22 games in a season.

He takes over a team that is three seasons removed from an appearance in the NBA finals; the Celtics won their unprecedented 17th championship in 2008. But with Garnett and Pierce showing signs of slowing down in this year’s playoffs, when Boston was eliminated by the New York Knicks in the first round, Ainge has decided to rebuild.

He allowed Rivers to take over the Clippers, extracting a first-round draft choice in return. Amid last week’s NBA draft, the Celtics and Nets agreed to a deal that would send Garnett and Pierce to Brooklyn in exchange for a package of players along with three first-round draft picks.

Now Stevens, who is younger than Garnett, will be the one to work with those players.

“Our family is thrilled for the opportunity given to us by the leadership of the Boston Celtics, but it is emotional to leave a place that we have called home for the past 13 years,” Stevens said in a release issued by the university. “We truly love Butler University and Indianapolis, and are very thankful to have had the opportunity to celebrate so many wonderful things together.”

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170 comments:
#1
Keith
Wednesday, July 3, 2013 - 7:08 PM EDT

Congrats to Coach Stevens for getting one of the top 5 coaching positions in all of sports.
To the ‘Stevens should have Crean’s job” faction of Hoosier Nation, apparently that ship has just sailed. I sincerely recommend you dance with who brung ya from the bottom, back to prominence. Happy 4th all.

 
#2
Chet
Wednesday, July 3, 2013 - 7:24 PM EDT

I almost feel bad for him but they’ll give him buckets of money and, once you get into the NBA coaches fraternity, it’s just a matter of moving from one team to another.

Congrats Brad, you grabbed the brass ring. Do you have Rick Pitino’s phone number?

 
#3
Ron
Wednesday, July 3, 2013 - 7:37 PM EDT

Wow. Gotta be some upset kids at Butler. Too bad but as Chet said $$$$$’s hard to beat for a young guy and family.

I did think he would end up at IU eventually. Still may but would be way down the road. Gotta be a shock for Butler with conference change and all. Be hard to replace him.

Wow.

 
#4
Hoosier Clarion
Wednesday, July 3, 2013 - 7:47 PM EDT

Can anyone see Todd Lickliter back at Hinkle?

 
#5
Harvard for Hillbillies
Wednesday, July 3, 2013 - 7:55 PM EDT

I could see Bobby Knight at Hinkle..Never happen, but wouldn’t it just be a blast?

 
#6
Ron
Wednesday, July 3, 2013 - 8:06 PM EDT

Comment I read somewhere….The Brad Stevens coup may over-ride the Egypt coup..

 
#7
Chet
Wednesday, July 3, 2013 - 8:10 PM EDT

So, Harvard, don’t I recall you making comments about Brad’s goodness and Hoosiersness and how he wouldn’t ditch a contract, leave his players, and run away to the big dollars and such or is that just my imagination?

Bobby at Hinkle being a blast? Maybe. Do you mean because he’s kinda the opposite of Brad or what? It might be a blast or it might absolutely horrify the Butler fans. I’m pretty sure we’ll never know?

 
#8
TsaoTsuG
Wednesday, July 3, 2013 - 8:27 PM EDT

Wow!…great coach to a great tradition. In that sense he and the Celtics really fit each other.

Not sure where it comes out. Stevens is a ‘teacher’ of basketball, in the Bob Knight sense. Real basketball and the NBA have little to do with each other. NBA players are not the best ‘learners’ nor do the majority have the skill of ‘character’ and ‘humility’ that was so prominent in Stevens’ s Butler teams. The question will be how strongly he’ll be supported by management when the entitlement wonders challenge his sense of the ‘right way’.

In a sense, the Celtics may have done us a favor. We are committed for the next 2-3 years. About the same time Stevens begins to figure out where he is and whether he wants to be there, we will have a much better idea of where the IU program is headed. I always thought that the Hoosiers and Stevens were a matter of ‘timing’ and hoped something would keep Stevens occupied for the paths to cross at the right moment.

Wish him luck, really. He’s earned his stature as an admirable man, coach and teacher. Nevertheless, AD Glass, please keep his number in your cell phone’s ‘fast call’ list.

 
#9
Harvard for Hillbillies
Wednesday, July 3, 2013 - 9:41 PM EDT

Wow…That seems to be the closest Tsao has come to

Chet-

Stevens was never my first choice. I liked Rick Majerus and Bill Carmody. I won’t take up a ton of needless blogging space to cut-and-paste and provide you proof the many posts on Basketblog where I mentioned those two names. Really liked Carmody…Just seemed like a real class act.

 
#10
TsaoTsuG
Wednesday, July 3, 2013 - 10:38 PM EDT

Majerus was (still is) one of my favorites, 5-10 years ago. His mind and vision for basketball were such a natural part of him, a second skin. Nevertheless, I was aware he had big heart issues and that did not spell B1G.

I liked (still do)Carmody as well- an excellent bk mind- but, for whatever reason, recruiting seemed to be a challenge he could not overcome. I don’t consider recruiting ‘the’ factor as many here do. But, I don’t ignore it either. Even at “mere 3-stars”, you still have to bring in ‘talent’ that fits your system, sort of like Ryan, the Wisky coach.

Stevens belongs at that level; coaches who can improve their team based on teaching fundamentals and intelligent vision…like RMK. Stevens has certainly shown that to us.

 
#11 Wednesday, July 3, 2013 - 10:53 PM EDT

2 things… As I move over to this thread:

1) Stevens didn’t exist when Crean got hired… So he wouldn’t have been on your list. He jumped to the top though once he made his name… So don’t be a hypocrite.

2) I wonder what this means for Trevon Blueitt… Does he all of a sudden want to come to IU? UCLA? Do we want him if he wants to commit?

 
#12
WaltD
Thursday, July 4, 2013 - 8:52 AM EDT

Congrats to Brad on becoming coach of the Celtics! I’m sure he will do a great job as coach and develop the Celtics into a winning team. But I can’t wonder at what price. I know the money is hard to turn down. But Brad always seemed to me to be a person who was grounded in his family, and loved a small collegiate family atmosphere. I can’t help wonder how he will handle living out of a suitcase, traveling from one hotel to another, and not always be able to go home at night. I think that will be his hardest adjustment. And I wish him well in handling it.

 
#13
t
Thursday, July 4, 2013 - 10:46 AM EDT

20 million dollars says it all….even if things are not successful….a 3 year ride at the very least and financial gain….then he would still have a ton of opportunities.

Maybe IU can get to the level where they can actually beat Butler.

 
#14
southport65
Thursday, July 4, 2013 - 12:24 PM EDT

There are a lot of teams who could not beat the old Butler under Stevens iU was just one of many!

 
#15
Mariner Tom
Thursday, July 4, 2013 - 12:31 PM EDT

Hmmm…IU beat Stevens’ Butler team year before last, didn’t they?

 
#16
Chet
Thursday, July 4, 2013 - 1:05 PM EDT

Not if they keep insisting we didn’t. That how it works. Keep saying IU couldn’t beat Stevens’ Butler teams over and over until people start to believe it.

It’s like “our annual deficits keep getting bigger and bigger” even though, in reality, they’ve actually been cut in half and continue to shrink.

 
#17
TsaoTsuG
Thursday, July 4, 2013 - 3:32 PM EDT

Does it really matter? No doubt Butler achieved some incredible heights under one impressive string of coaches. Between Matta, Lickliter and Stevens they set a progran that year after year became a model for outstanding college basketball and a great training ground for great coaches.

In addition since the 1950′s (that’s as long as I go) was a fundamental stone in the tradition of a great link between unparalleled high school and college basketball. The question of the state’s great basketball tradition includes Indiana, includes Butler and includes…yes, Purdue. I’ll die a rabid Hoosier fan but I’ll always nod my respect for our two greatest adversaries; and happily cheer for the two when our team is out of the tournament.

 
#18
Harvard for Hillbillies
Thursday, July 4, 2013 - 4:35 PM EDT

Happily cheer for Purdue? Never.

I tend to look at Butler, BSU, Valpo, ISU as the tiny Indiana Cinderellas that once every decade make some noise in the NCAA tournament…These small colleges have great basketball traditions and rosters primarily packed with Hoosier kids(though Valpo does shop the overseas market and is probably the most roster diverse of all the small Indiana basketball schools). It’s fun as hell to watch many of these kids that have never seen the limelight, had very little hype on national recruiting rankings list, grew out of long and storied high school programs from around the state, come up big against Goliaths in the NCAA tournament. These are not programs that are part of the new machine of college athletics..They rarely have your one-and-done talent(ISU had Larry ‘Legend’…BSU had Bonzi Wells years ago..Butler had the fortunes of a future NBA role player in Hayward, but the tales and tournament riches are far and few between)…How can you not get on board with these wonderful programs that epitomize the heart of Indiana’s great basketball history and family tree? No state in the nation can compare.

Purdue? More of a pathetic story…The insecure child that just didn’t get the right mix of genes..Brags and brags and obnoxious to the core…Received lots of attention but forever feels abandoned of true love. Could never measure up to the successes of the Bloomigton sibling they long to be seen as belonging in the same history.

I just hope Indiana hasn’t turned into that older brother in Silver Linings Playbook…I sorta always like IU when we we’re still a bit of a classy underdog where knowledge, roots in the solid classrooms of fundamentals, and cornfed grit plays above the perceived talent level.

 
#19
Podunker
Thursday, July 4, 2013 - 4:48 PM EDT

Stevens’ move to Boston is a no brainer! If he can cash those big checks for three years, his family’s future is set. Then he can do the Calipari and Scumbag, oops I meant Petino thing, and come back to the NCAA and its highest bidding University. If he happens to win in Boston during the next three years, which he won’t, then he gets to stay and continue making huge cash. If he gets fired for not winning, which is most likely, he can attribute it to the rebuilding process the Celtics are going to go through and still come back to the NCAA. No brainer!

He may be the best young coach in college basketball today, but he’s probably not any better than Calipari and the Scumbag (Petino) were when they made the jump. They did not win in the NBA and neither will Stevens (not because of his coaching, but because of the Celtics’ depleted/young roster). But the money is GREAT and as long as he keeps his nose clean, he’ can always come back to the college game. NO BRAINER!

For Stevens, it was either leave Butler for another college job or it was leave Butler for the NBA. No Brainer.

 
#20
Podunker
Thursday, July 4, 2013 - 4:53 PM EDT

Sorry for the spelling error. Scumbag is spelled Pitino, not Petino. My bad.

 
#21
Mariner Tom
Thursday, July 4, 2013 - 5:37 PM EDT

Since when were Ball State (22,000 students) and ISU (11,000 students) “tiny” colleges, Harvard? They are both mid-sized public universities.

Out of the schools you listed, Butler’s recent success trumps everyone else’s, and does more to validate your statement about “tiny” Indiana schools than the rest combined.

 
#22 Thursday, July 4, 2013 - 6:11 PM EDT

Fun fact of the day… Every single member of the Russian WUG team has a last name ending in V.

http://www.usabasketball.com/mens/worlduniversity/13_mwug_exh_01_box.html

 
#23
Ron
Thursday, July 4, 2013 - 6:48 PM EDT

Remember Chris-Chicago? Had a ‘sticky’ keyboard. Often had too many v’s.

Many years ago working hospital in Indianapolis. Morning rounds noticed triplicate requisitions for treatments, blood work, ekg’s and etc. Threw the ‘extras’ out. Later in day catching hell for work not completed. Turned out a family from Poland (or some country around there) had an accident. All had first names at least 15 letters long, same long middle name and same last name. One letter different between the three in their first name. I of course thought all the orders were for the same patient.

(Believe that was when hospital felt maybe I should be a manager – not direct patient care. Have many more stories about my growth to ‘management’. Such as a catheter to the bladder and a machine with sticky wheels. Just think ‘ouch’..)

 
#24
TsaoTsuG
Thursday, July 4, 2013 - 8:42 PM EDT

Just read some articles about Stevens and his background. Impressive. A math major who workde at Eli Lilly before deciding to return to coaching. He, apparently, used his background in statistics to analyze opponents, both team-wise and individually and was not afraid to test himself in the same way. Says a lot about the man in a profession that, like all others, are just now beginning to understand mathematics is nothing but an analytical language that facilitates examination. Not sure how that will work out in the pros, but following him should be fun.

One conclusion: the best coaches are the best students of the game. not all need to be mathematicians, but do have to have a strong intuitive understanding of logic and a methodology to incorporate reason and analysis in their coaching. They also have to communicate the value of that preparation to their players; and the players have to buy into it.

That would be particularly true for game-coaching, ‘seeing’ on-floor situations, understanding them, understanding your own players, at least as much as the opponent’s; and ‘adjusting’ and intervening in the opponents tendencies, especially late in a game.

I went back and re-read the accounts and then re-viewed the last fifteen minutes of our loss to Butler. If you like to watch coaching and want to understand what preparation is, it is really worth doing. I had forgotten we got beat when Stevens did not do what we expected and Butler left us sucking our thumbs.

(I just reread this and can anticipate someone taking it the wrong way. This is not a critique of our own coaching or of our team as a whole. It is just my thoughts about Stevens and coaches (or professionals with similar qualities in any field)..

 
#25
TsaoTsuG
Thursday, July 4, 2013 - 8:49 PM EDT

Chet- just read your post #16. Could you explain your last paragraph (about deficits) to me? Thanks.

 
#26
Chet
Thursday, July 4, 2013 - 9:14 PM EDT

Tim Duncan played at a school with an enrollment of 6,000 (Wake Forest). Is WF, an ACC school, considered an underdog if they played BSU (22,000 students)?

 
#27
Harvard for Hillbillies
Thursday, July 4, 2013 - 9:21 PM EDT

God bless Brad Stevens…God bless America…. God bless pharmaceutical companies that feed us needless amounts of drugs with horrendous side effects that most likely cause lifelong damage to our bodies far beyond the minimal placebo effect of most their chemical concoctions built on marketing more than truth ..Lock up the monkeys in the lab basements and shoot them up with overdoses for we are the world, we are the children. We’ll put anything in our damn mouths and brains…We’ll soon cure gun violence by finding just the right capsule for the mentally deranged still deserving their assault rifle… …statistics and sample sets always skewed to serve only profits in a medical industry completely void of ethics.

 
#28
Chet
Thursday, July 4, 2013 - 10:03 PM EDT

I’m pretty confident that there’s some sort of agreement promising that they’ll leave gun violence alone. Kind of a professional courtesy type of thing.

There’s way too much money in gun violence for someone to cure it. That would be…sane.

 
#29
Mariner Tom
Thursday, July 4, 2013 - 11:49 PM EDT

In what has become the most predictable fashion, Harvard once again swings from the far right (anti-government) to the far left (anti-corporation)…. what a Maverick

 
#30
Dundarias Targeryan (Mariner Tom)
Friday, July 5, 2013 - 12:07 AM EDT

Chet- It’s always a special occasion when “tiny” Duke (14,000) faces up agains mighty UNC (29,000). Not sure if any state in the US outside of North Carolina knows how special it is when the Blue Devils are able to overcome such gargantuan odds to beat their cross-state rivals.

 
#31
TsaoTsuG
Friday, July 5, 2013 - 1:07 AM EDT

Harvard, are you off your meds again? No wonder Stevens left Eli Lilly and had to go do something much more socially redeemable.

But, it turned out ok. He went to coach those who are socially redeemabl; and, if he had stayed at Lilly&Co, he’d have to deal with market collapses every time you decide to stop a specific hallucinagen (sp?)

 
#32
TsaoTsuG
Friday, July 5, 2013 - 1:28 AM EDT

Chet- I agree…besides, anyone can do something socially redeemable, with social and communal value. There’s no point nor great intellectual challenge in making any kind of reasonable, morally acceptable argument to support anti-gun initiatives. The real challenge to the intellect and to the absence of reason is to make a completely morally collapsed argument on the value of guns because they actually do what they are supposed to and designed to do and we have the verifying (as opposed to horrifying) data and statistical studies to do it.

Guns work!

The same is true of Harvard’s anti-pharmaceutical/ anti-medicine posture. Why, if the drugs work then we may actually wipe out some disease and conditions that really harm people and we then would wipe out those possible markets and, possibly, put thousands out of work who then couldn’t even afford the price of a high school game ticket and what would then happen to all those gyms of lore where people place their hearts and play for the colors on the shirt and school name and give chances to coaches who coach for $1000 a season instead of $30 million, and what would then happen to some of those same kids that the coaches promote with second grade reading levels to 11th grade who learn their geometry by doing 360o(degree) whirly-dunks that Harvard otherwise sends into my neighborhood to sleep in the backs of old wrecked taxis (or the back of classrooms).

Worse, if we pay everybody what they are worth, they would then try to protect their income by…..by…..by….voting Republican (THERE I SAID IT!!) and it would then be one hell of a shoot-out!

 
#33
TsaoTsuG
Friday, July 5, 2013 - 1:31 AM EDT

hallucinogen….hallucinogen….hallucinogen….hallucinogen….hallucinogen….hallucinogen….hallucinogen….

 
#34
Harvard for Hillbillies
Friday, July 5, 2013 - 2:27 AM EDT

Mariner will never get over the fact that one of his best Husky teams in the last three decades couldn’t get past the Indiana college we love to poke fun…the school with the lowest tournament success rate based on conference strength/enrollment numbers. Purdon’t became Purdid against his basketball Cubbies of the Northwest. Good thing they didn’t have that mammoth basketball institution known as IUPUI to deal with.

In four decades, his Huskies have gone no deeper than those other massive colleges in our state that don’t even know what an “at large” bid is…Ball State has made a Sweet 16..Valpo has made a Sweet 16..ISU has made it to the championship game…Butler has gone to two championship games.

You think Steve Alford short shorts is a long time ago..? The last time a Washington Husky team has made it to the Elite 8 this(appropriately)was a top tune of the day.

Why on earth does he want Hoosiers to become indoctrinated into his complacent b-ball world and measure our success on a ‘Boiler Up!’ standard or a belief back-to-back Sweet 16s is an enormous deal? That’s an easy one..For six decades a Sweet 16 is his true love’s banner standard. You just saw that Dawgie in the trophy window.

 
#35
Harvard for Hillbillies
Friday, July 5, 2013 - 4:00 AM EDT

I should actually be fair…The Washington Huskies are certainly not without their own share of bragging rights when it comes to guys in Alfordesque short shorts that can really stroke it.

 
#36
Chet
Friday, July 5, 2013 - 8:40 AM EDT

Guns work in the same fashion that cigarettes do.

When used as directed.

 
#37
Tiny Mariner Tom
Friday, July 5, 2013 - 10:01 AM EDT

The state of Washington has it’s own tradition of tiny cinderellas, starting with Gonzaga, the Butler Before There Was Butler. How about Elgin Baylor emerging from tiny Seattle University? How about the tiny Washington State Cougars advancing to the Sweet Sixteen in 2008, not to mention the tiny Washington Huskies, a historical football powerhouse (and alma mater of tiny NBA standouts Detlef Schrempf, Christian Welp, Brandon Roy, Todd McCullough, SPencer Hawes, Nate Robinson, Quincy Pondexter, Terrence Ross, Isaiah Thomas and more) showing that they are certainly capable of running the hardwood?

 
#38 Friday, July 5, 2013 - 10:17 AM EDT

This came up in my YouTube sidebar when I followed Harvard’s Doggy in the Window link… I think y’all will appreciate it much more:

http://youtu.be/aZcSCT34H84

 
#39
Mariner Tom
Friday, July 5, 2013 - 11:03 AM EDT

Just noticed Keith’s comment about the Celtics job being one of the top 5 in all of sports. Who else finds that debatable?

 
#40
Harvard for Hillbillies
Friday, July 5, 2013 - 11:11 AM EDT

the tiny Washington Huskies, a historical football powerhouse

You heard in here first(snicker…snicker).

Huskies arguments are much the same as Geoff…Historical relevance in basketball is measured by the tiny handful of guys your favorite alma mater has placed in the NBA..Banners? There’s no human element to banners. Where are the faces? It’s just cloth. Those were simply erected by nobodies, footnotes in history, young men that played a team game above the perfections of any individual greatness that should always matters most.

Now let’s all bask in our future successes of coaching mediocrity and lack of team execution as we relish upon developing prima donnas over cohesive units that work in unified determination and pride for the jersey. Let’s take to the market what we have-individual glory more than team achievement-the salivating over the athleticism of the nth degree over honed specialty skills at the game and using all unique sets of talents every name on a roster to become part of a goal achieved together. That’s why they despise Indiana…Because they just have never been able to get the “together” part of the game.

But he who has known nothing but heartbreak in a game of five-on-five must take this angle, for championship banners and trips to Final Fours is a subject of heartbreak and proof of lack of collective and unselfish passion for the game…It is a subject they must avoid. They turn basketball into golf and tennis…or a 100-yard dash to the NBA finish line. Big surprise in the ‘me first’ world of tweeting/facebooking all over yourself with your own supreme name on top the screen while forever proclaiming what the ‘I’ did far more important than what the meaningless ‘we’ ever achieved.

Banners live in the world of those that know what to do with their basketball chemistry sets.

 
#41
Harvard for Hillbillies
Friday, July 5, 2013 - 11:25 AM EDT

Banners are tiny…The names behind those banners that never sniffed the NBA are the tiniest in our beautiful and storied tales of a team game. They are of tiny focus these times of Kings reigning in our nations basketball capital, Miami, and increasingly become smaller by the year.

Aren’t they beautiful, those “tiny” banners? They are like tombs of forgotten warriors. Look to the rafters of Assembly and see how small they actually appear..Hold your arm extended in front of your face to compare the size of those banners to what we care about in the game today. You can block out all five with one tiny hand.

 
#42 Friday, July 5, 2013 - 11:34 AM EDT

Yeah, 100% positive I never made that argument… Closest I’ve come to saying anything like that is passing along the FACT that no title winning teams in the 1-&-done era have been lacking in NBA talent. Therefore showing the need for high-level prospects and not just hoping that the state of Indiana provides you with enough 4 and 5 star guys…

But I digress… Here is what I came to say:

Just watched FIBA U19′s and Dante Exum upset Spain with a magnanimous performance. His teammates aren’t that good, but he had 33 with several assists and a backbreaking 3 (from deep) to kill a Spanish rally. He was a man among boys in that game, and assume he looks that way against everyone except US squad.

If anyone is interested, you can pay $11.99 and watch the games live. You actually get all FIBA related games for a month at that price. Exum has at least one more game (semifinals) and USA plays this afternoon, and unless there is a monumental upset will play through the finals (so 3 more games).

 
#43
Jay Gregg
Friday, July 5, 2013 - 12:08 PM EDT

Tom, #39, that is debatable. Saban, at Alabama, has to have one of the best jobs in all of sport today. Until Wednesday I may have said Brad Stevens, at Butler. Pat Fitzgerald, at Northwestern, has a great job. I am not familiar with international soccer but feel confident that there are some pretty good jobs in that group.

The best job is all of sport is fleeting. Some may have thought that Bobby Bowden had the best job at one time, thnk Joe Paterno. Win today it’s a great job, lose tomorrow it’s not such a great job. Alford, on 7/5/13 may have a great job, on 1/1/14 it may not be so great, on 4/1/14 the job may really stink.

Walter Alston had the best job ever, something in the area of 20 years as manager of the Dodgers. Went home in the winter to Dartown, Ohio, not a stoplight!

 
#44
Mariner Tom
Friday, July 5, 2013 - 1:04 PM EDT

Jay Gregg, I agree. International soccer all by itself might have 4 more desirable jobs than the Celtics (Man U, Real Madrid, Barcelona, the Milan teams … ). Then you add in other jobs such as the Yankees, Lakers, Canadiens, ‘Bama, Duke/UNC/UCLA/Kansas (take your pick), and it gets pretty murky. The Celtics as one of the best all time coaching jobs simply doesn’t sound automatic to me.

 
#45
TsaoTsuG
Friday, July 5, 2013 - 3:37 PM EDT

Chet, not sure. Guns do what they are supposed to do a lot quicker, often causing less suffering. Cigarettes, on the other hand can take a longer time and cause a lot more slow suffering. Plus, the advertising industry and media the money from the tobacco industry than the arms merchants. Politicians, however, reverse that process.

 
#46
Jay Gregg
Friday, July 5, 2013 - 4:59 PM EDT
 
#47 Friday, July 5, 2013 - 5:15 PM EDT

I guess as part of the debate you have to define “top” job, which was Keith’s phrasing… Not “best”…

I could certainly make more of an argument that it has more “prestige” world wide (any step brothers fans?) than any of the college jobs you mentioned. And Keith did say “in the world”… The NBA also has a bigger international brand than the NFL, since football really isn’t played outside of North America. I think the Yankees, Red Sox, and Lakers are the only 3 pro coaching jobs from US leagues than can compare on the world stage.

 
#48
Harvard for Hillbillies
Friday, July 5, 2013 - 5:48 PM EDT

If there was any amount of additional proof to the existence of an entitlement point of view from a select group of condescending blabbering prima donna know-it-alls on Scoop(a.k.a. Establishment thinkers that can’t get enough the smell their own stinkers), it’s the assumptions made in posts #44 and #47.

And here they are on an IU blog site where they spend all their time and energy salivating over their Patriots..or their Lakers…or their Celtics…or their Yankees…or their Nittany Lions…or their Huskies? Right here on a tiny Indiana IU website…always telling Dustin how to do his job while coming into our “tiny” insignificant Indiana cornfed hick house to condescend and somehow convince themselves how it’s so much better everywhere else(primarily their own backyards) while they lounge on our coach and put their feet up on our cocktail table.

Anyone else see the irony?

Yes, Oladipo is going home….
Home…Hoooooommmme…There’s no place like home…there’s no place like home.

 
#49
Harvard for Hillbillies
Friday, July 5, 2013 - 6:13 PM EDT

I haven’t heard this Brad Stevens angle….

Could he have realized his coaching stock has dropped ever so slightly since the back-to-back appearances in the Final Four?

Does he realize how Indiana is gaining steam and understands last year’s win against the Hoosiers could likely be the last for many years of head-to-head battles?

Did he want to close the door on the debate and bragging rights to who is the best coach in the state before Tom Crean and a much more athletic team could put a complete ass-whoop on the Bulldogs this coming December in the next Crossroads Classic?

Because, at the end of the day, isn’t he only a great coach because he had a brief moment of bragging rights over the most storied basketball program in the state?

I think he saw the spankings that were coming. I think he knew that this was his opportunity to enter the draft..To wait could have meant that door never opening again. Walk away while you’re still one up on the Hoosiers….Maybe Mr. Stevens showed his true colors. He knows he can’t build a program in the style of Knight and sustain it against the Pipeline methodology a Crean no longer needing to pander to the locals is putting in place in Bloomington.

I believe Stevens saw Butler moving back into the land of irrelevancy and most of that change began with Cody Zeller.

 
#50
Harvard for Hillbillies
Friday, July 5, 2013 - 6:20 PM EDT

oops…Just found a typo.

…while they lounge on our [couch] and put their feet up on our cocktail table.

 
#51 Friday, July 5, 2013 - 6:29 PM EDT

Love the irony… While posts #44 and 47 contained absolutely zero assumptions (literally no assumptions in either post), post #49 was entirely assumptive.

You are a bizarre duck Harvard.

 
#52
Harvard for Hillbillies
Friday, July 5, 2013 - 6:59 PM EDT

Maybe stated more succinctly…(how’s that for irony?)

Is Zeller wearing candy-stripes, the Movement, and the back-to-back Sweet 16′s for Indiana far more detrimental to Butler’s sustainability(in terms of Indiana recruits and the grabbing of national and local headlines) than the back-to-back Final Four trips by Butler could ever keep Indiana down for long?

The slightest signs of new hope for upcoming deep tournament runs in Bloomington is the bigger blast to the heart of Butler than the losing of a coach that built his strongest success when Indiana at the mercy a witch hunt?

Conclusion: (pharmaceutical analogy)Stevens saw his patent rights expiring.

 
#53 Friday, July 5, 2013 - 7:40 PM EDT

Which is why Stevens turned down UCLA and several other high paying major conference gigs…

You are the one doing all the assuming Harvard. Are there micro-bytes of truth to your suppositions? Sure… But if Brad saw the writing on the wall at Butler, he simply would’ve taken the millions in Westwood (Alford, their 5th choice, signed for 7 years and $18M… One can only assume what Stevens, their first choice, would have commanded). He’d have his choice of high profile recruits on the fertile west coast. The hot shot young coach at the most historic of all basketball programs… He’d have most likely crushed the mediocre PAC 12, and sent Husky Tom crying to bed at least twice a year.

But he didn’t. He took Butler from the Horizon, to the A10, to the Big East. He vastly improved his recruiting cache with that last move. He was on the verge of signing his first 4 star recruit within state borders.. A kid that IU was the very first to offer….

There must have been something about the Celtics opportunity besides the millions. Unless you think he is a liar, it had to do with the prestige of the job, the challenge of the NBA, and most importantly the people that formed the inner circle front office of the Celtics… Which he said felt so very similar to the home/family atmosphere he felt at Butler. That Ainge had a similar value set, both as a person and a basketball mind… Of course maybe he’s just a liar.

 
#54
Chet
Friday, July 5, 2013 - 10:21 PM EDT

I do think that Stevens’ value as a college coaching commodity, certainly as Butler’s coach, is at its zenith. He won’t be taking them to any more title games. His star at Hinkle will never again shine as brightly.

Why didn’t he go to UCLA? Who knows. Maybe he already had an inkling about the Celtics…or maybe the Celtics weren’t the only NBA team interested. No college team is gonna fork over NBA money. No legit team, anyway.

Whatever the case, he is a very sharp guy. I hope his basketball acumen is the equivalent of his business skills. He’ll need it.

I’ve always liked the Celtics. They are probably my second favorite NBA team (after the Pacers).

 
#55 Friday, July 5, 2013 - 11:25 PM EDT

Chet… There was certainly no discussion here in March (when Alford took the UCLA job) that the C’s weren’t going to have Doc back. He had signed a long contract… He is beloved up here… Many people thought they were semi-contenders if Rondo were healthy – since they had taken Miami to the brink last year… I don’t think there was any inkling in Stevens’ mind about a move to the C’s… I mean heck, the entire Doc trade almost blew up and they had scheduled a press conference to talk about his plans with the C’s next year…

He said as much in his press conference today that other NBA teams had inquired, but he wasn’t interested until the C’s came calling.

As far as the money goes, I don’t think there is a huge difference between the 7 years and $18M that Alford got, and 6 years $22M that Stevens got. I’m guessing that Stevens would have commanded more than Alford, since AD Guerrero at UCLA admitted that Stevens was his first choice…. Probably in the vicinity of $3-4M/yr, which is exactly what he’s getting from the C’s… Crean is getting $3.1M/yr from IU… Pitino is getting $3.9… Cal $4.2… Coach K depending on what report you read is getting $7.2 in salary alone…

So yes, college jobs do pay NBA money for the top positions, which Stevens is in the conversation for. I doubt when he comes back to the NCAA (undoubtedly) he’ll be taking a pay cut. He’ll come back when Pitino’s eyes lids finally droop so bad that he has to retire, or when Harvard’s dream comes true and Crean leaves to coach Duke, opening up the IU job… Or maybe even he takes over for K… I highly doubt he’ll be coming back for less than $4-5M/year, which is still pretty good after 4-5 years of inflation.

 
#56
TsaoTsuG
Saturday, July 6, 2013 - 12:52 AM EDT

Wish Stevens all the fortune on this Earth. His succeeding with the Celtics, while playing a reasonable facsimile of what we see as ‘his style’ could well create a sea change in the NBA, and that would be good for basketball. That is particularly true for college basketball which sadly is becoming more of a one-on-one game combining something that resembles basketball because it has an orange rim and net at each end of a bowling alley and James Caan’s ‘Rollerball’ ode to violence game.

What makes me suspect that Stevens’ move is a positive is because he has shown, on the court, that the evolution of basketball over the last ten years or so has lacked the intelligent and strategic minds in coaching that made it so compelling. As a result, the game is barely an appendix of its recruiting; which is to say rarely if ever a game of strategy, tactics taught by intelligent coaches who also must be able to blend and teach a salad of talents into a smooth, efficient living organism.

Hopefully, Stevens’ role in the most historical and traditional of professional basketball organizations means we will see changes in the NBA game. It would make sense in the NBA’s economics and it would legitimize its product in our culture.

One last interesting possibility. If indeed Stevens’ hiring (and even his interest in the job- beyond mere money,- which, I suspect must have been a tough internal struggle) is indicative of a possible change in the direction of the NBA…would it not also suggest that we could perhaps see the eventual return of RMK to ‘the game’ (and on his terms)? Not saying this is what it is; merely speculating one possible extension of what has to be a puzzling event (Stevens’ hiring by the Celtics).

Basketball needs to big thinking and Stevens’ hiring is a step in an interesting direction.

 
#57
Harvard for Hillbillies
Saturday, July 6, 2013 - 2:43 AM EDT

Not to sound full of conceit, but this must be quite the playground for Dustin and Jeremy.

No matter the positions/opinions, I’m convinced this has to be one of the most unique small family of bloggers anywhere.

I do slip into a bit of the sinister dark fantasy now and then…I reminisce. I sometimes miss how the fiery L*ffy would pop into the Scoop discussions with all the hospitality of a streaker with a chainsaw primed to cut to shreds any long-winded blow found in the delusional hypocrites, the dreamy wishful crybabies, the “worshipers” of the “fruitcake” past, the Pollyanna white-washers of purity parading around in their gowns in the after-hours for a late night snack in their Knightie-night Dicken’s slippers.

I think about L*ffy…He was likely the most unique of all. He was so damn raw with the words spinning off the teeth his chainsaw, or carriage if you will, of unwavering truths. Misery…Shining..Christine..I do believe he was the Stephen King of Scoop. He drew you in because he could scare the living crap out of you. I’m sure he’s typing away somewhere as we prance in our quiet and soft Hoosier slippers.

 
#58
Harvard for Hillbillies
Saturday, July 6, 2013 - 2:50 AM EDT

oops..Dickens’ slippers

 
#59
Harvard for Hillbillies
Saturday, July 6, 2013 - 3:13 AM EDT

I actually heard he’s in bloggers counseling.

 
#60
Chet
Saturday, July 6, 2013 - 8:53 AM EDT

I think he was more of a Michelle Bachmann. Still scary but for a far different reason.

 
#61
Hoosier Clarion
Saturday, July 6, 2013 - 10:26 AM EDT

I’ll describe what is scary. One of my daughters-in-law(+ 6 others in their small business workplace)was given notice 2 weeks ago her full time job was being cut back to 28 hours a week. The reason for it is BO’s PPACA. When big government hangs new regs small business must adapt to compete, grow and remain profitable profit. I can’t wait for electricity to quadruple over the next 7 years.

 
#62
Ben
Saturday, July 6, 2013 - 12:16 PM EDT

Chet,

I respect you and enjoy your posts, but can you lay off the politics? I get it your a proud Dem. That’s fine. I get it you think we don’t have a spending problem, and BO is thrifty, and slashing deficits. I get it. Stick to your strengths. Hoosier related material.

 
#63
Harvard for Hillbillies
Saturday, July 6, 2013 - 1:15 PM EDT

Ben-

Hogwash…There’s a ton of ultra-conservative on here. They may not always utter names of politicians, but they communicate there perspectives nonetheless. Chet’s stuff is mild.

Chet is a veteran that his served his country…Chet has done tons of volunteer work to help kids…Chet is a loving husband and father that has sent his kids into the world with a determination to learn. Chet is compassionate. Chet is adventurous. Chet is forgiving. We need more Chets at Indiana.

 
#64
Hoosier Clarion
Saturday, July 6, 2013 - 1:30 PM EDT

h4h-

Hogwash…You drink the same Kool-aid as Chet. Your credibility chastising Ben is about as biased as would be my patting him on the back. There are others on here who may vote differently than Chet and also have similar/same redeeming qualities.

 
#65
Harvard for Hillbillies
Saturday, July 6, 2013 - 2:44 PM EDT

Barney Frankenberry for your morning cereal!

 
#66
Hoosier Clarion
Saturday, July 6, 2013 - 2:56 PM EDT

I refrain from reading any of your posts in their entirety as you will make multiple corrections as usual?

 
#67
Ben
Saturday, July 6, 2013 - 3:39 PM EDT

Harvard,

You can be a Rupub or Dem, and have great qualities. You took it the wrong way. I never once doubted his character, loyalty to his country. I admire his dedication. All I was saying is sticking to Hoosier Sports.

Thanks for backing me up HC. You understood.

 
#68
Harvard for Hillbillies
Saturday, July 6, 2013 - 3:52 PM EDT

Yeah, you’re right..Reading a Harvard post is analogous to listening to Dr. Bao give testimony at the Zimmerman trial.

For Clarion…An inconvenient truth of sorts(preemptive warning here..this clip does contain some raw language).

Listen carefully around the 2:00 to 2:40 mark where Gore’s “inconvenience” enters the routine.

 
#69
Hoosier Clarion
Saturday, July 6, 2013 - 4:08 PM EDT

Just as I do with all your visuals it too shall go unobserved.

 
#70
TsaoTsuG
Saturday, July 6, 2013 - 4:12 PM EDT

Only problem Ben, is that you are trying to impose a content on a blog that has worked and flowed marvelously among a group of friends centered on a strong affinity for Hoosier sports, but enjoy the open give and take on a variety of subjects that range from their political differences to recipe exchanges, all culturally bonded by their common love for the candy stripes.

We’re glad to have you add to that; but in general, we’re a pretty independent fraternity proud of our multiple experiences; and our wide, wide range of interests and opinions.

Join us; but accept that you’ll find us unashamedly incorrigible.

 
#71
Harvard for Hillbillies
Saturday, July 6, 2013 - 4:14 PM EDT

It’s the middle of summer..Other than slobbering all over Stevens being a Celtic(I mean, who really cares?), what in the world is off-topic? There are no ‘topics’ in mid-July.

Guess we could dive into Crean tweets or talk about pizza…or maybe form another Salem witch trial because Harvard avoided a lunch date with Geoff.

Here’s a b-ball topic…By how many points do you think we’ll annihilate Butler next year? We’re beginning to rid our roster of the slow-footed Indiana kids(Roth, Hulls, Elston, Zeller)that were built to appease the locals that thought Butler had the right strategy, an RMK strategy, to sustain tournament relevancy. But this is the year that Crean finally has some talent less reliant on Indiana folk heroes and more built in the manner his Marquette teams. Did Stevens see it coming? Crean has eased the locals into his grand plan..He gave us our Cody and built the clean image…He made us relevant enough with his Indiana Movement and Dipo..Now things are gonna change..Now we become a bigger and meaner version of Marquette…I truly believe that Stevens sensed how ugly it could get this coming December. He bailed at the right time. We’re getting closer to a Sampson designed team without the weed and the inside snoopers..

 
#72
Hoosier Clarion
Saturday, July 6, 2013 - 4:20 PM EDT

…slow-footed Indiana kid, Zeller?…

 
#73
Harvard for Hillbillies
Saturday, July 6, 2013 - 4:26 PM EDT

Caught ya! You were reading.

 
#74
Harvard for Hillbillies
Saturday, July 6, 2013 - 4:38 PM EDT

Yeah..Cody is really pretty quick on his feet. Problem is/was is that he’s very predictable and mechanical. He wasn’t fluid in the boxes..never gave much of smooth jump hook or nice turnaround…And other than in a open court breakaway, he was never really explosive to the rim. He was lunging in the Syracuse game and I’m still rather puzzled how he could go so high in the draft. Does he have the quickness and fluid inside game to ever dominate? Maybe with the right coaching and tutoring that he wasn’t getting for the last two years.

I think we’ll be quicker more than faster…at all positions. We’ll be more playground style than mechanical as we secure more Pipeline recruits that have played a less rigid and puritanical style of hoops.

 
#75
Ben
Saturday, July 6, 2013 - 5:13 PM EDT

TSAO,

My parents raised me to never talk about politics and religion, and keep my views to myself. I know these days people broadcast it, but I am old school I guess. Friend or not. I am a man of few words.

My only regret is when I trashed Harvard awhile back. I knew it was wrong, and since apologized. I learned and licked my wounds.

 
#76
Ben
Saturday, July 6, 2013 - 5:50 PM EDT

Clark and Jones are gone this coming season right?

 
#77
Chet
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 12:29 AM EDT

Ben, you might have some sort of point if you were a little less selective. You’d sit back and blissfully let HC read Mein Kampf because you’re comfortable with it but if I mention a Tea Bag wing nut it makes you feel uncomfortable.
If you don’t like political references then don’t play favorites.

 
#78 Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 2:58 AM EDT

There is only one true man of few words here, and that’s Clarion… Anything more than a sentence is an epic for him.

 
#79
Hoosier Clarion
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 7:45 AM EDT

Mein Kampf? Hardly! Another left handed swing by Chester. I had Uncles who fought the war machine of that tyrant and a the particular bunch of cowards who perpetrated 12-7-41. Brokaw best defined them in 1998 as “The Greatest Generation”. Born or raised in the depression, won the war and then built America. They secured the freedom which allows us to read the philosophy of Marx if we wish and for some us the balls to totally reject it.
Geoff an epic x 7.

 
#80
Mariner Tom
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 9:36 AM EDT

It takes zero balls, or brains, to reject Marx. It’s what we’re taught to do from birth in this country. It takes gumption, on the other hand, to read Marx and realize that he had some legitimate gripes.

 
#81
Ben
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 10:01 AM EDT

Nobody is playing favorites Chet. Me and HC SIMPLY share something in common. Case closed. Again, nobody is attacking you, or out to get you. As I said earlier, politics and religion rile people up.

Give me a break Chet. Mien Kampf? You just insulted my grandpa, who served proudly, and loves his country.

Different opinions make this world go around. Embrace it. Good Sunday to all.

 
#82
Hoosier Clarion
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 10:14 AM EDT

HT, I look around in my own community and access much differently. Many, many more than a decade ago live with a handful of gimme and a mouthful of much obliged. These are the same people we were satisfied spoiling by buying designer jeans for their butts and instilling “you deserve a trophy too” in their heads. As you say it is what we taught. Sow and reap.

 
#83
Chet
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 11:01 AM EDT

Every male member of my family for the past three generations, including all my siblings less one sister (who feels she served by marrying a banker), are veterans. It just what we have always done in my family.

In fact, I had a great, great uncle who newspaper articles referred to as the first US soldier (cavalry colonel) killed in combat in a country they called ‘Corea’ in a military action I’m willing to bet you never even knew took place over a hundred years ago. We’ve been doing this for a while.

 
#84
Jay Gregg
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 11:31 AM EDT

I’ll take that bet Chet about Corea. I’ll also say this, you are no better than anyone else on this blog. You seem to feel that you and your family are royalty, probably not even close. It was my understanding that the “Hoosier Scoop” was focused on Indiana University athletics, not the Chet ???? family. I served Chester! My father served! My uncles served! My Grandfather served! Take your attitude and shove it!

 
#85
Harvard for Hillbillies
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 1:06 PM EDT

My grandfather(my mom’s dad)has lineage tracing back to soldiers that fought in the American Revolution. The family actually goes back to those that came from England to the Virginia colony.

 
#86
Harvard for Hillbillies
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 1:11 PM EDT

I guess you could say I’m part of the first ‘Pipeline’ of recruits from the original Eastern Establishment. Take that Crean!

 
#87
Chet
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 1:19 PM EDT

Harvard, I don’t know about lineage any further back than newspaper clippings go. I can trace back maybe 150 years tops.

Jay, insecure much? Most of my family, from what I know of them, went on to be dirt farmers and share choppers. My Mom was the only one of 14 kids to finish high school. Quite the blue bloods.

I’m sure you’ll dedicate a bunch of posts on how much you hate me, just like last time.

Knock yourself out.

 
#88
Chet
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 1:28 PM EDT

I DO have an uncle that moved from a Kentucky prison to a Federal Correctional Facility.. We were kind of surprised he’d set his sights so high.

 
#89
Jay Gregg
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 1:31 PM EDT

No Chet, I do no hate you. I feel sorry for you. You are the true loser. Your next post will prove my point.

 
#90
Chet
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 1:46 PM EDT

Harvard, have you ever visited Williamsburg? One of the guides, I’m guessing a college student, gave the tour and explained the events as if they were occurring while we were there. It was pretty cool.

 
#91
Harvard for Hillbillies
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 2:09 PM EDT

I am embarrassed to say that it was only a few hours visit to Williamsburg to ride Apollo’s Chariot at Busch Gardens…Great coaster!

 
#92
Chet
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 3:27 PM EDT

I think you’d find it pretty entertaining. We spent a couple days there on the way to my daughter’s graduation. It was my first visit in nearly 30 years.

 
#93
Ben
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 3:55 PM EDT

My parents and I loved Williamsburg. Dad and I combed through the civil war battlefields together. We loved it.

Chet, if proving your point is to knocking me down, because I don’t know something you don’tt, then congratulations. You won. I’m sorry I even brought it up. I’m leaving this thread. Happy Sunday.

 
#94
Ben
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 3:58 PM EDT

Btw, I don’t agree your a looser. Your Hoosier IQ is spot on, and if your comfortable in life, that’s great. That’s not a bad thing. Ok, I’m really gone this time.

 
#95
Mariner Tom
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 4:08 PM EDT

HC, agree with you completely about the “handful of gimme” and current generation of entitlement.

Where we differ, I would guess, is in our opinions of the source of the problem. Where as you probably see it as strictly an individual problem, I see it as both individual and cultural. To me, our culture of capitalism works to teach everyone that they deserve a trophy, and then proceeds to flood society with cheap credit so that they don’t have to work for it (and enriching predatory lenders in the process). Constant consumption drives the economic machine, and we are taught to be thoughtless and impetuous consumers at all times to keep the profit machine (euphemistically referred to as the “job-creation” machine) running.

Some of the individual consequences are that we don’t save money any more, and we don’t manufacture like we used to; we’re very happy to outsource jobs and to buy that special item at WalMart because the cheap has eroded the ethical. Instead of being thoughtful consumers we try to justify our behavior as “just the way the market works” rather than realize the power to do the right thing through our decision making.

 
#96
Harvard for Hillbillies
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 5:03 PM EDT

The reason we don’t save money anymore has little to do with addictions to consumptions. The reason we “can’t” save money is because wealth, especially corporate wealth, has increasing become concentrated at the top.

And though we are fed economic statistics to claim inflation is under control, the fact remains that dollar doesn’t by sh*t anymore, wages have been constrained for decades, and corporations will never let go of a grip and ever-increasing pool of workers doing far more, working far more hours, for far less mileage on a salary.

And for many, there is really nothing even resembling security that comes with salary and annual wage increases that can even begin to make up for the decades of depleting assets and resources that can give someone any amount of negotiating power at the workplace. There is simply someone with naive ambitions always in the wings that the feed the circle of life; corporations that perpetuate the ongoing one-sided dictatorial relationships where your job, loyalty, and experience is easily expendable and can be efficiently performed by the next hungry go-getter at a lower pay rate.

Yeah, save..? Right. Most Americans our borrowing more than the prices of their overpriced homes just to put their kids through college. They spend 150 grand for a kid that fights for quality job against a massive pool of applicants…Don’t get the quality job and you’re working at Cheesecake Factory for $10.00 trying to live independently and pay back the price of a home in college loans…Save?

There is no saving what the greed at the top has done to the American dream.

 
#97
Harvard for Hillbillies
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 5:04 PM EDT

the dollar doesn’t [buy] sh….

 
#98
Harvard for Hillbillies
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 5:17 PM EDT

I love the expressions “thoughtful consumer.” Right out of the world of elitism that has never tasted one minute of a day what a typical American is dealing with.

Yes, be a thoughtful consumer while you raise your kids on your own, work 50 hours a week, commute an hour back and forth on congested highways, pick up the kids from daycare(if there not just fending for themselves in a home without a parent until 7:00 o’clock at night), have enough free time to take a crap and go through a McDonald’s drive-thru window, jump back in your car to attend Joey’s 6th grade basketball game, get back home, look at your mounting bills you can’t pay on your $10.00/hr. wage you’re earning while you’re attending Ivy Tech two days a week(because your Masters degree in Education was four years wasted borrowing burying you in delinquent debt a collection agency is calling you every night for during the two hours your attempting to learn your kids names)….

Damn, unthoughtful consumer, you! You should really learn to manage your time and money better.

 
#99
Harvard for Hillbillies
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 5:28 PM EDT

Churn your own butter from cream…bake your own bread…and only shop at Trader Joe’s for those delicious baby watermelons. ..You can do it, thoughtless and impetuous consumer! Plant a tiny garden outside in some clay pots on your 3′ x 4′ balcony of that $800.00/month apartment swallowing 2/3 your take home pay. You’ll get one side of fresh beans for one meal sometime in late July to feed your kids with that Steuffer’s family lasagna tray.

Use those two hours per night to harvest beans from your pots instead of killing so much time uploading pictures from Joey’s basketball game from your i-phone to Facebook page…Damn thoughtless fool consumer, you!

 
#100
Chet
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 5:47 PM EDT

Ben, you know better than that. I have defended you more than once on here. What I said was don’t expect to get by with objecting to the expression of one political opinion while you’ve been readily gobbling up the opposing viewpoint.

You’re a good guy it seems like. You don’t want to stumble into that kind of behavior.

 
#101
Harvard for Hillbillies
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 6:05 PM EDT

Is Ben the blogger formerly known as Reggie formerly known as Puke is the Worst?

I don’t really remember much about Ben’s political leanings. I do remember Reggie talking about his dad’s Romney bumper stickers on the family’s gas-guzzling Escalade sporting the chrome spinner hubcaps.

Reggie said he could mow the entire neighborhood’s lawns on the same amount of gas it took the Escalade to get down to stop sign..

 
#102
Harvard for Hillbillies
Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 6:13 PM EDT

Damn thoughtless consuming gas-guzzling Righties. No wonder the average American has to pay $4.00/gal at the pump. Until the rich show any inclination to conserve, they’ll just keep building vehicles that drink it and base the price of our hungry egos to drive our own personal battleships accordingly.

 
#103
Hoosier Clarion
Monday, July 8, 2013 - 6:43 AM EDT

h4h, With your defeatist attitude it is easy to see why you want the wealth of the rich to be redistributed. After all their wealth is stolen whom will you steal from then for you gain? Whom will you blame your plight on then? Golden geese theories do not work, boot straps do.

HT, I hold validity with some of what you post. Certainly the loss of our smoke stack industry is multiple. When I graduated from HS the very next Monday I could have gone to any 1 of those many factories and started earning a “head of the household” size income.

 
#104
Chet
Monday, July 8, 2013 - 10:23 AM EDT

The Reagan, Bush, Clinton ‘free trade fiasco’ proved our manufacturing undoing. Ross Perot was actually right on that one. Too bad we didn’t pay closer attention (I’m as guilty of writing the guy off as anybody).

Not that it’s possible anymore but our country was once financed entirely on tariffs. Our trade policies have the rest of the world laughing behind our backs.

The problem is, the people the REALLY make those decisions (many of whom you’ve likely never heard of) like it that way and don’t give a rat’s patootie about ‘America’. I don’t have anywhere near enough to be one of them but I DO have enough that they might want to take it.

I’m afraid of ‘redistribution’, too, but it’s not the poor people that worry me. They don’t have any power. Shoot, a lot of them don’t even get to vote anymore.

 
#105
Harvard for Hillbillies
Monday, July 8, 2013 - 1:21 PM EDT

Corporations are the new Kings of England…They hold the favor of our flag as they escape the brutal tax systems employed on their average workers while the King’s inner circle have orgies with the sweat of labor their soft hands have never known, tax loopholes, billions in stock options, spinning on heads and shutting down competition with buyouts and monopolistic dominance of markets that spit in the face of Sherman Anti-Trust, and then they take the raping of the people and land and place the excesses s into overseas investments to rape another land.

Clarion- Don’t use that Rightie spiel on me. There is no conscious in this land. Their is no playing field closely even. Redistribution couldn’t happen in a thousand years even if of the most liberal hand-out Commander in Chiefs reigned in that pretty pillared castle for the next consecutive 100 terms. I watched what corporate greed accomplished through the eyes of a small thriving business. I watched them come through the doors slamming their fists and using their powers. I watched them send the King’s hit men in suits and threaten to pull out decades of solid customer respect and reputation right out from under a WW II vet’s feet that started with nothing, back him into a corner with no understanding the true dedication and market forces his million dollar business was built, then proceed with their fist-pounding and threats to degrade one of the hardest working men I’ve ever known feel his 35 years of dedication to their products meant nothing.

Our Founding Fathers are rolling in their graves to what we’ve done to Frances Scott Key’s hope and vision written to song for a country fighting for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for all. They would spit in the face of those that play with human beings like their tin trinkets on a Monopoly board game. They would ship the short greedy spineless born of privilege and halls of Ivy to France to serve as prostitutes for Benjamin’s next vacation to soak up the culture.

 
#106
Harvard for Hillbillies
Monday, July 8, 2013 - 1:27 PM EDT

..like [they're] tin trinkets.

 
#107
TsaoTsuG
Monday, July 8, 2013 - 4:35 PM EDT

Chet, mixed feelings about your post. I aggree that R. Perot knew what he was talking about when he warned about digging the ground out from our manufacturing sector, a huge source of our growth and of employment. And our tariffs have been lowered on the basis of our demand for access to ‘free-markets’ where the advantage is on the other side due to labor costs. You leave out the deregulation of financial markets (a Clinton policy) that made banks and Wall Street owners of our corporations. Perhaps Bush contributed to it (not in a direction-turning way) and Obama has done absolutely nothing to reverse it. Not sure we can at this point, not without throwing our economic society in the meat grinder. But you can’t possibly look at it and ignore the role of the Democrats without admitting it is a knee-jerk response as automatic as Harvard’s resentment of anyone who has accomplished anything at all.

Hoosiers Clarion- I believe that you are right to a very large extent. What has changed is the individual values and social fiber that recognized and rewarded individual effort and focused so much attention on creating Nirvanna and a society that confused safety nets with entitlements and robbed individuals of the dignity of their own effort and achievements. Your points are valid and remain- even if many don’t want to hear it- the foundation of the great Nation our parents and grandparents built.

Harvard- You are very confused. Whatever happened in your own life is your own responsibility. If someone conned you, you need to look at the values that made you vulnerable to the con. No one owes you (or me, or Clarion or any of the characters here) a damned thing other than the opportunity to work to create your own life. There is one consistent them in every line I’ve read by you in the last two years and you can’t hide it by covering it with redundant vocabulary and pseudo-poetry.What is that theme? You scream, continually and at the top of your lungs, “I failed!”. It’s true, you have (based on your ownposts); and that won’t go away until you hear it, recognize its meaning and- most important- absorb it! And you’ll remain there in your own stagnant backwash until you stop attacking every thought other than your own and attack every word and joy (including IU) by people who are generally enjoying their lives and respect themselves.

Hard words?, damned straight!…Harvard, someone has to care enough to say it to you. No one gives you a damned thing simply by humoring in your ritual self-flagellation.

Don’t be such a coward, do something! You have a pretty good basketball mind, a sense of basketball culture, you intuit the game with depth…start a f—— blog on those things your eyes penetrate. That’s a start away from your paralysis. Keep it away from your delusions or those things you know nothing about….but do something!

 
#108
Harvard for Hillbillies
Monday, July 8, 2013 - 5:28 PM EDT

There is no greater ‘failure’ than an arrogance of cruelty.

It must play upon a guilty conscience something you have so repeatedly condescended, waved the righteous flag, and claimed to have fought so hard. Too proud.

 
#109
TsaoTsuG
Monday, July 8, 2013 - 5:50 PM EDT

Or, too honest.

 
#110
Harvard for Hillbillies
Monday, July 8, 2013 - 6:11 PM EDT

Or, too guilty to be so righteously flawless and pure.

 
#111
Harvard for Hillbillies
Monday, July 8, 2013 - 6:26 PM EDT

And I’m far from confused the growing disparity between those that hold the majority of power and wealth and the imprisoned classes working more and more hours with less and less time for family in a rigged economic system increasingly corrupted by monopolistic determinations and greed those on top.

Wealth and income inequality today is by far the worst in the industrialized world and has fallen in line with many Third World countries. Nobel Prize winning economist Joseph E. Stiglitz explains why this is bad news:

Some people look at income inequality and shrug their shoulders. So what if this person gains and that person loses? What matters, they argue, is not how the pie is divided but the size of the pie. That argument is fundamentally wrong. An economy in which most citizens are doing worse year after year—an economy like America’s—is not likely to do well over the long haul.

The top 1 percent have the best houses, the best educations, the best doctors, and the best lifestyles, but there is one thing that money doesn’t seem to have bought: an understanding that their fate is bound up with how the other 99 percent live. Throughout history, this is something that the top 1 percent eventually do learn. Too late.

 
#112
TsaoTsuG
Monday, July 8, 2013 - 10:57 PM EDT

their/ there/ they’re.

 
#113
Harvard for Hillbillies
Monday, July 8, 2013 - 11:07 PM EDT

Yeah, I know. I didn’t correct it because I expected you to go there again. I don’t proofread until after the fact….and I’m a reckless, manic, misfit, failure because I don’t bow to you. What else do you want to know now, Tsao? no/know/now…one/won…loose/lose…your/you’re…full/fool.

You really need to come down from that cloud..You’ll be there soon enough.

 
#114
Hoosier Clarion
Monday, July 8, 2013 - 11:57 PM EDT

h4h, This Rightie is damned pleased with what I’ve made of my opportunities. I hope at my age you can say the same. But your audible body language indicates that will not occur and you’ll bitch about the “haves” to the end.

 
#115
TsaoTsuG
Tuesday, July 9, 2013 - 2:26 AM EDT

Harvard…you’ve made that exact same error for at least the last six months. For quite a while I passed right by it because I also have brain freezes. Most commonly, mine is because on the blog, I rarely edit. But the errors should be random. I mention this one because it is an error you repeat over and over and over.

By the way, Siglitz is an idiot who specializes in conning marginal leftist leaders, especially in Latin America and creating himself a nice little gig as an adviser to demagogues. His economic theories sound a lot like the folkloric poetry-slams you sometimes fall into…i.e. #105 and #111 (where you quote from him). Now be a nice kid, be respectful or I’ll pull you from the ear and sit you down in Hoosier Clarion’s boarding school. Read what he wrote…you could learn a lot from him).

 
#116
Harvard for Hillbillies
Tuesday, July 9, 2013 - 5:06 AM EDT

I’m happy for your riches and feelings of achievement.

Though I find it rather amusing that men of such rags to riches can’t get enough of telling it and selling it. Most men that are comfortable in the many facets of what can be a full life find no need to pat themselves on the back for it.

While within the walls a perception of all the comforts your grand achievements, there is often something amiss you must long that causes such chest thumping. Usually it’s a repressed shame for never feeling a sincere love or finding someone you can love more than yourself.

Riches are so often found more in the heart than in the wallet. So many that have all they wish still die very lonely.

 
#117
Hoosier Clarion
Tuesday, July 9, 2013 - 7:10 AM EDT

Bootstraps h4h, bootstraps. I do not know why you have given up or when but you cannot shame into your misery. You express the most negative thoughts of my recollection. How is that working for ya? I access it this way, you’ve gotten what you want and deserve out of life and so have I, even though I expect everyday we do many things in the same way for the sane reason.

 
#118
Chet
Tuesday, July 9, 2013 - 9:12 AM EDT

“. You leave out the deregulation of financial markets (a Clinton policy) that made banks and Wall Street owners of our corporations. Perhaps Bush contributed to it (not in a direction-turning way) and Obama has done absolutely nothing to reverse it.”

You’ll get no argument from me. It’s almost funny that the right wing media paints the oft felt dissatisfaction among the masses with Obama by saying he’s attempted too much but every single analysis has shown that the dissatisfaction is because he has moved so far to the right to appease Wall Street and the corporate keepers. The vast majority of people who are unhappy with the Affordable Care Act are unhappy because it didn’t go far enough. It should have simply been Medicare for all (which, for those who don’t know, is what Medicare was supposed to be the whole time. What we have for seniors was only meant to be phase one).

Of course, anyone that works with the ACA every day, as I do, realize that it is a tremendous step in the right direction but it’s just a step. Those who oppose it (other than for personal gain) should read it instead of believing what righties claim it says, which is invariably wrong.

The thing is, he’s done (or, at least tried to do)exactly what he said he’d do. Our mistake was picturing him as what we hoped he’d be and not what he told us he’d be. Obama is well to the right of Eisenhower and likely even Nixon (policy wise). While the country hasn’t shifted that way our corporate controlled government certainly has.

 
#119
Hoosier Clarion
Tuesday, July 9, 2013 - 9:18 AM EDT

Post #118 will be humorous to me for weeks.

 
#120
Harvard for Hillbillies
Tuesday, July 9, 2013 - 11:39 AM EDT

You express the most negative thoughts… How’s that working for ya?

It wasn’t very long ago on Scoop that you demonstrated just how you put on your Barney Frank bootstraps, Clarion…Yup, Barney Frank bootstraps…And you have the audacity to believe you’re thoughts are positive?

How’s that Barney costume and the hopes for liberty and happiness for ‘all’ working for you?

Strange how there was a particular blogger on here that was not really part of the discussions that day…a blogger that came into the thread after the cannon shots had been fired in an attempt to stop the witch hunt along with the simplistic and reactionary responses to paint Clarion as the Paula Deen of Scoop…I wonder who that ‘negative’ person was?

I guess it’s a lot like George Zimmerman getting out of his car…Within a mountain of evidence appearing to prove everything a man does under the Constitution and laws of the land was in the ‘right’, there will always be the question of the one possible ugly thought that prompted getting out of his car no freedoms should ever defend.

 
#121
Harvard for Hillbillies
Tuesday, July 9, 2013 - 11:40 AM EDT

You express the most negative thoughts… How’s that working for ya?

It wasn’t very long ago on Scoop that you demonstrated just how you put on your Barney Frank bootstraps, Clarion…Yup, Barney Frank bootstraps…And you have the audacity to believe you’re thoughts are positive?

Strange how there was a particular blogger on here that was not really part of the discussions that day…a blogger that came into the thread after the cannon shots had been fired in an attempt to stop the witch hunt along with the simplistic and reactionary responses to paint Clarion as the Paula Deen of Scoop…I wonder who that ‘negative’ person was?

I guess it’s a lot like George Zimmerman getting out of his car…Within a mountain of evidence appearing to prove everything a man does under the Constitution and laws of the land was in the ‘right’, there will always be the question of the one possible ugly thought that prompted getting out of his car no freedoms should ever defend.

 
#122
Harvard for Hillbillies
Tuesday, July 9, 2013 - 11:50 AM EDT

..believe you’re positive/believe your thoughts are positive

your/you’re

 
#123
Chet
Tuesday, July 9, 2013 - 12:09 PM EDT

Any regular consumer of the Scoop knows the source of HC’s disdain for the man in the White House and it has nothing to do with policy. We’ve all gotten a glimpse behind his curtain.

 
#124
Hoosier Clarion
Tuesday, July 9, 2013 - 1:13 PM EDT

I’ll be laughing for weeks, thanks to Chet.

 
#125
Ben
Tuesday, July 9, 2013 - 1:17 PM EDT

Absolutely and totally disagree Chet. Clarion doesn’t hate blacks. Clarion in set in his ways, and comfortable. Not many can say that on this site. Taking a swab to Clarion like that is low, and very disgusting. To me, it shows your very quick to judge, and slightly paranoid that your anointed president is being attacked.

 
#126 Tuesday, July 9, 2013 - 1:50 PM EDT

Regardless of my politics and who I voted for, I will simply add this… It is not paranoia… BO has been getting attacked since his first day in the WH – it has rendered his position largely ineffective. The opposing party has refused to work with him regardless of the merits of any individual bill. Some think this is a positive, and some think its a negative, and some of us are simply frustrated by the entire system… But it is most certainly a fact.

It’s not paranoia when its true.

 
#127
Chet
Tuesday, July 9, 2013 - 4:38 PM EDT

Ben, HC recently used a bigoted epithet on the Scoop. Dustin deleted it and admonished him for it. Instead of apologizing for it HC said, “I call them as I see them.”

Now, he’s assuming everyone either didn’t see it before it was deleted or forgot about his bigotry. He can either own up to it or lie about it. Doesn’t matter to me.

HC, did you really think you could say something like that on a public forum and there would be no consequences?

I really hadn’t intended to ever respond to any of his posts again (I hadn’t since his ugly comment) but when he thought he would skate on this I felt he shouldn’t get off that easy.

 
#128
TsaoTsuG
Tuesday, July 9, 2013 - 5:33 PM EDT

Chet, glad you agree with me. I have no issue with with your view of ACA. I believe that health and its care should be available to all citizens and legal residents of the US, and its benefits (at least the basic ones- not to include liposuction for beauty’s sake or plastic surgery or baldness transplants for the same reason…etc,( you get the jest) and, distributed equally. And, if push comes to shove, even those that for reason even as ridiculous as laziness, whatever…; I would not be the one to declare they should not be treated. That is a basic right of God’s creatures, if I have my way (God will decide on whom the treatment works or not). But, IMHO, a society this rich (in macro terms) has a moral duty to make sure we offer the chance of health. The same is true of children and the chance to grow up safe, secure and feel loved… So in general terms your value system is probbaly not different than mine; nor HC’s, nor Podunker’s for that matter. From what I read over two years, you’d want and wish no more/no less for kids and families than what yours had and I feel the same exact way…when it comes to basic human needs.

But, there are those out there who get opportunities and blow it or waste them.

There are those out there who make mistakes, have the opportunity to correct them and do. Most accept it. And, there are those out there who have had the care, love, the opportunities, try and fail and simply decide (yes, it’s a decision)to not correct themselves and continue to fail and whose ego (yes, I said EGO)prevents them from acknowledging it. They are the ones who IMO, spend the much of their lives blaming everyone or everything (including institutions, the corporations, the society, the government, the value system, the political system, the parties, the church, the religion…ad infinitum) else; and never, never do what any thinking person should do…look at themselves as the source and take action. Is it oversimplified? yes, probably; but I literally believe it is that simple though coming to grips with it requires work and honesty with yourself and, most important, humility.

Here is where I think you are wrong. I think it has nothing to do with righty or lefty, even less with political party. Each party had its own philosophy. The Republicans, more often than not, are focused on the individual’s will and avoid institutional solutions. The Democrats see the individual as more vulnerable to natural (or not) forces and see government as an intercessor …while the Republicans see it as the source of the problem. I give little importance to each since, as history demonstrates, these are identities that shift over time. The issue of the link between race and justice was most impacted by a Republican who gave the Federal government the power to reject the state’s sovereignity to decide over its own cultural preferences (Abraham Lincoln) and was willing to go to war to enforce it. On the other hand, Democrats have given leadership to various interventions that led to major wars despite their liberal anti-war claims (that includes Vietnam, U.S. meddling in Latin American countries the Alliance for Progress, (Kennedy) that ended up supporting miltry dictatorships in Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, Uruguay; the Kosovo/Macedonia, Bosnia,Yugoslavia(Clinton) ….and, of course, G. Bush father and son G.W. in Iraq (though I see more justification for getting rid of a Saddam Hussein and confronting the Salafist movements (when you consider the brutality and unmitigated savagery, even with their own people)within the extreme islamist factions than in some of the above mentioned. You can not see the body of the children killed by Saddam in northern Iraq before we intervened, or the savagery of draining the swamps in the south and still believe that it was ‘none of our business, not if we are going to call ourselves America and be proud of who we pretend to be.

So the entire ‘righty’/'lefty’ paradigm (of exchanged insults) seems to me to be pretty pointless and unproductive besides just plain wrong most of the time. Just as the whole issue of Medicare vs. socialized medicine vs. government guaranteed health care nor any of the other stupid positions that oppose the right to health of every human being who is part of this Nation. Particularly since it is not a gift, but an insurance program we paid for, in nearly-full, and systematically, in many cases for 30 years or so. And, for which we should find a more efficient way of paying for the other 20 percent. (Including, possibly, taking a good look at the exorbitant profits and compensation the medical professions, the drug and medical equipment industries and the hospital, care provider and insurance corporations (among others) and their Wall Street investors are making.

It’s not about ‘rightys’ and ‘leftys’, liberals or conservatives. I proudly confess to being both. Righty, lefty; Democrat, Republican, Conservatives, Democrats is simply how the issues are meant to distract us, deflect us from thinking and reroute us, so they avoid discussing merits of right/wrong and the natural order of things… some of both.

Me, what do I know? I’m a Hoosier to the bone marrow! Always good to argue with you Chet…it keeps me thinking, focused and nimble.

 
#129
TsaoTsuG
Tuesday, July 9, 2013 - 6:33 PM EDT

I spent some time writing my entry to you, #128 and did not read your #127 until just now. That’s a pretty unfair ambush on HC.

Not sure of what it was he wrote that one day (I probably got there too late that day to see it and have no more than vague references from some-like you- who say you did). The one thing I know is that HC is pretty direct about what he thinks and when he makes a statement it doesn’t hide any of his feelings. I may or may not like it; it may even offend me…but as long as he lives in a country where the right to free speech is guaranteed, it is also my guarantee that no one will try to silence my thought…or yours for that matter (and please notice, the content of HC original post is unknown- thus irrelevant- to me).

I also think that the editor/administrator (be it DD or Jeremy) has every right to remove it since it is ‘their’ sponsored blog. It does bring up the issue that they have never informed is of the limits of tolerance they allow ; though DD has always stated he’ll allow ‘almost everything’. I complained at the time that we bounced- ergo, correctly- Laffy for his obscenely foul and demeaning language that the criteria of ‘civil discourse’ should be applied; but it apparently never was nor were its limits of tolerance defined. Though, at times,I’ll concede Jeremy does appear more eager to intervene with his own view of censorship than DD.

Nevertheless and whichever; at this point (several weeks later) and without a specific point of reference seems more like criticizing by insinuation than fact. It’s a bit like trying to grab cigarette smoke…nothing there but you can smell it for days.

 
#130 Tuesday, July 9, 2013 - 7:30 PM EDT

Tsao – thought your 3rd paragraph in post #128 was interesting. I wanted to make a distinction that I think exists in real life… I believe you fairly accurately described the actual constituents who claim to be members of either party. However, I don’t think that the actual politicians leading those parties meet your descriptions very closely at all. They pander very well to said constituents and fill our heads with ideals we align with, then get into power and do what is best in many cases for their personal or party well-being, and more often than not, what’s in the best interest of the money backing them… And pay little attention to what you described in paragraph 3 except when they find a camera in their face again.

 
#131 Tuesday, July 9, 2013 - 7:50 PM EDT

Tsao,
Hoosier Clarion was referencing Barney Frank and instead of using his last name inserted the f-word epithet for homosexuals. Granted, I haven’t written down any strict guidelines and I tend to err on the side of leniency, but I have made it clear in the past that racist and homophobic slurs are out of bounds on here.

 
#132 Tuesday, July 9, 2013 - 8:02 PM EDT

In fairness, HC has not said anything racist and I don’t think his opposition to the president has much to do with race and everything to do with party.

 
#133
Ben
Tuesday, July 9, 2013 - 9:36 PM EDT

Regardless of my politics and who I voted for, I will simply add this… It is not paranoia… BO has been getting attacked since his first day in the WH – it has rendered his position largely ineffective. The opposing party has refused to work with him regardless of the merits of any individual bill. Some think this is a positive, and some think its a negative, and some of us are simply frustrated by the entire system… But it is most certainly a fact.
It’s not paranoia when its true.

Give me a break Geoff. You act like poor Ol’BO is being bullied, and nobody wants to work with him. That’s bull. It’s lime that with any president we have ever had. They all point fingers.

Your a classic example of what is wrong with the system today. Your quick to point fingers, when YOUR ideals are being slammed. Geoff, I suggest you don’t put all your eggs in one basket. You will be disappointed. Judging from your joke, typical American thread, your sobbing already, and playing the blame game this administration has done since Day 1. Whether it BO or Bush, admit your mistakes. BO is so quick to blame Bush for his failures. Bush was just as much in the wrong, but wake up Geoff, BO is in office now. Be a man, don’t blame, and fine first man to fix this f—er.

Chet, I didn’t know. Sorry.

 
#134
Ben
Tuesday, July 9, 2013 - 9:38 PM EDT

“And be the first man”

 
#135
TsaoTsuG
Tuesday, July 9, 2013 - 9:40 PM EDT

Evidently, some who never saw the original statement take advantage of the reader’s ignorance. Few of us saw it and have no idea of what was said and use it to attack HC’s opinion while using words like ‘bigotry’; which, in fact are based on their own political posturing as ‘defenders of Rights.’ Nothing could be further from the truth; they too are promoting their own bigoted views. (A perfect example of ‘left’ or ‘right’ is irrelevant.

What is true, the law protects all to have equal rights–under the law–. What makes our Constitution the greatest on Earth is that it prohibits no one from expressing opinion regardless of how repugnant anyone- even the majority- would find it.

It is right there in the First Amendment and can not be changed…not even by Congress (“Congress shall make no law …or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press.”)

Whatever you think of HC’s statement, it is everyone’s duty to defend his being able to make it. What a great concept, huhh? Our soldiers are pledged to defend the concept with their lives.

Who could even attack the idea!

 
#136
TsaoTsuG
Tuesday, July 9, 2013 - 10:13 PM EDT

Geoff…we don’t disagree on the nature of the politicians. What never ceases to amaze me is how much they change- for the better- when they get to the White House and seem to realize it’s not about parties but it is about Nation.

Think about our two most recent; G.W.Bush (son) and Barack Obama. How much continuity there is in their policy and in how they handle crisis. (I remember the Obama who was in Chicago and it leaves me scratching my head when I see him today; or the ‘Junior’ who was at Yle and he one who speaks (infrequently) today.

And both have two things in common. Bush (Jr) had Chaney as his chief adviser, and Barack Obama had his Rahm Emanuel; and, both Presidents ended up disillusioning their parties.

 
#137 Tuesday, July 9, 2013 - 10:33 PM EDT

No one has the right to stop him from saying it, Tsao. I’m not suggesting he should be arrested and neither is anyone else. I’m just saying he can’t say it on this blog, which is the property of the Herald-Times. Also, people are allowed to use his words to form their opinion about him and to use it against him in arguments.

 
#138
Hoosier Clarion
Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 9:33 AM EDT

ROTFLMAO! Damn an ole boy leaves for a few hours and returns to rock star attention.

Ben what I stated, which DD deleted, was absolutely truthful and factual. It was not tactful, as I intended. Chet believes he can make me back away from stating it. I never apologize for stating facts. I never back up. What he is now practicing is the equivalent to writing on bathroom walls or mimicking the noise of a baby robin. I will not allow any shadow to fall on me from Chet or anyone else. I evaluate the performance of business people for a living. I have evaluated BO for 41/2 years and my grade for him is an F. Bush not much better at a D. As a consultant my recommendation would have been to remove both from their duties.

 
#139
Chet
Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 9:57 AM EDT

“Ben what I stated, which DD deleted, was absolutely truthful and factual.”

There you go, Ben. That’s who you spoke up to defend.

 
#140
Hoosier Clarion
Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 10:18 AM EDT

…I again hear the baby robin…

 
#141 Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 12:02 PM EDT

Ben, you most certainly have me confused with someone else… I may very well be part of the problem today, but I didn’t vote for BO in the last election. I don’t find him to be anything remotely close to what the right deems him to be, but I also find him to be inconsistent and ineffective. Beyond that I think he is a good man, probably a good father, and I think he cares about people in general and this country… I just think that he has a different view on how to go about it… Nothing sinister. He has some good ideas and some bad ideas… Just like any politician or party member.

Now, I’m not acting like BO is being bullied… He can take care of himself. I’m saying that from before he was elected and throughout his terms the Right has been in attack mode, and the GOP has from day 1 made it their solemn promise to not work with him. Those are facts – the birth certificate nonsense, Muslim accusations, and Mitch McConnell (with the media support of Limbaugh) forging a unified front of resistance to 100% of Obama’s proposals – that all happened.
Maine Republican Senator Olympia Snowe, who has chaired countless committees, was named one of the top 10 Senators in 2006, and had held her seat for 18 years, quit mid-term because the GOP agenda had become to stall progress instead of advance the country, and partisan politics were the worst she had seen in her 37 year political career…. That is a fact.

Listen Ben, I’m not bashing you for being a Republican… As I said, I find that much of how Tsao described Reps and Dems to be true at the constituent level. My step-father, who I respect probably more than any man I’ve met, is a life-long Republican. I consistently, although not solely, vote for Republicans in each election. If you want to yell at me for calling a spade a spade you can, but you just come across as defensive and more than a tad naive.

 
#142 Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 2:41 PM EDT

I also wonder why you think you know what my ideals are… Please enlighten me… What are my ideals?

This should be good.

 
#143
TsaoTsuG
Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 3:18 PM EDT

He (Ben) probably is a bit naive, but so were we at the same level of sophistication. You have it right, the constituencies are not reflected in the politicians value sets. I don’t think the parties were created for anything except fundraisers. But politics does not make the philosophical view of the constituencies any less legitimate.

To go further with the thought, when looking at the constituencies we also have to be careful not to paint either (elephant or donkey) with the same brush. Interest groups among Republicans can range from the Olympia Snow/Richard Lugar moderates to the Tea Party activist; even they are grouped by interest groups based on their focus and their narrow local interests. Some like Mc Cain mostly represent foreign policy interests, some defense policy, some agricultural concerns (subsidies, etc), urban vs. suburban concerns, health policy issues from the stand point of their own, narrow constituencies- i.e. health care industry concerns- and economic issues.

Same with the Democrats who can range from what is a legacy of the Dixiecrats whose view on race can be anything but progressive (Chet’s own state of North Carolina still has some pretty wild eyed, pillow-case buying individual who still think Brown vs. Board of Education was a betrayal of their values); to Democrats whose interests lie in ‘set-asides’ and Affirmative Action to Democrats who feel equality is an absolute and oppose any idea of identifying policy to benefit any specific interest group.

That’s how the system was designed. The problem is that the ideological arguments are being identified as inter-party issues by the opponent. Democrats insist on defining Republicans (look at any of Chet’s posts in this very thread); and Republicans love to define the Democrats (again, read this very thread; some of HC’s unapologetic posts- to which he has every right). Then, go read the dictionary definition of bigoted. Now, try try telling each they fit it.

But ask either to define themselves and the only way they can do it is by telling you what they are ‘against’. Yet, they where they agree, they are completely alike. Chet is very, very satisfied with his own personal life and accomplishments his family, his semi-retirement, his comfort and his motorcycle. HC…his proud and satisfied of his accomplishments, his economic situation, his family and his lifestyle.

Do you want to see how American politics really works. Look at the interest groups realign and re-mix in the next 50 weks or so over the immigration issue. Its like making a fruit salad.

You’ll see coalitions of hardcore republicans joining interests of groups backed by La Raza to back immigration reform. The Democrats hugging La Raza officials to swell their party’s access to their votes on, say… our Syrian policy, or charter school’s role in urban education initiatives. Meanwhile, the most conservative of Tea Party pols will back immigration reform and issuing driver’s license to undocumented residents simply because they have a big need to keep the flow of labor coming to harvest their fields, or to encourage the sale of automobiles and raise tax revenues on gasoline; or support the ‘path to citizenship’ or vote to reject it, in exchange for the reducing the number of missiles aimed at Russia or vote for and against liberalizing gun laws (as the Illinois legislature did yesterday to permit ‘concealed carry’, just what we need…more guns with 100 bullet chambers walking by the schools or using our parks.) Go look.

You are right, Geoff, the sad truth is that politicians are artful in speaking to each of these interest groups as if they were native sons of each.

None of these affect me one way or another; and identification with a ‘red’ or ‘blue’ for me is, truthfully pure silliness…even irresponsible citizenship.

Examine what they say; both Chet and HC are not only dogmatic but absolutely interchangeable; and on voting day, vote their extremes and cancel each other out. Thank God, leaving the election for those of us between 47% and 53% (in other words-right down the middle) who are, at least, likely to vote either, depending on the issues.

Me, I’m a shameless Ronald Reagan, Harry Truman, Wine tasting, Coffee Clutch, Tea Party Repucrat- Demoblican, incorrigible Hoosier fan.

And, I’m an American!

 
#144 Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 3:48 PM EDT

Loved paragraph 4 Tsao… so true.

One thing that I tend to find interesting though is how much more eloquently and concisely Chet and Dems in general can argue their side. Whether or not I agree with what they are saying it always comes across as better thought out and less emotion-based to me.

Of course most of that is because people like Clarion and Ben fancy themselves as men of few words… And people like Rush, Beck, Coulter, and Savage come across as lunatics spewing hate… (The left has a couple too)

The GOP needs more mouthpieces like Bill O’Reilly who actually sound intelligent and who are not just trying to entertain and sell advertising.

 
#145
TsaoTsuG
Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 3:50 PM EDT

HC… “I again hear the baby robin”. That is one great line!! I’ve got to remember that one.

(No offense Chet…just justice where justice is due. That is one great line.)

 
#146
TsaoTsuG
Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 4:04 PM EDT

Geoff, actually it makes sense to me. Republican are pretty much bottom line people. They are to the point, pretty much ‘the only truth is reality” types.

Demos, on the other hand, are “the Heavens and the shooting stars; the perfect dance of the comets on the firmament while the breath of the night’s vast spaces….”

The Republican tells you, “that meteor is two lumps of compressed coal flying across the orbit. Let’s mine it!”

 
#147
TsaoTsuG
Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 4:17 PM EDT

One more thing…I was just thinking. You remember Rush, Beck, Savage, Coulter (actually, she’s a very good writer- not saying I agree with her views- juyst that she writes well).

My strong preference, people like David Brooks, who are really good thinkers and write very well and capture the interesting. Shields, on the other hand, sounds like an older citizen claiming his right to not be constipated. Everything sounds like the same thought.

Personally, I like interesting people whose ideas have content. Sort of how I feel about sports.

 
#148 Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 4:44 PM EDT

Tsao – I basically agree with your analysis (although I’d say many Maine Democrats are very hardy/straightforward and conservative folks), I just think if the GOP ever wants to capture a wider demographic than they currently attract that they need to find more people inbetween the Clarions and Savages to explain their views.

 
#149
Chet
Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 8:48 PM EDT

Here’s one for you folks.

NC Republicans (despite getting a 48% minority of votes in the general election they hold a super majority in the legislature due to redistricting so only their votes actually count) recently passed a bill in which if a college student votes in the district in which they attend college their parents cannot claim a tax deduction for them as a dependent.

Now, to my ‘dogmatic’ view, this appears to be a blatant attempt to keep college students from voting, as they tend to vote Democratic. Perhaps one of you more ‘sensible’ Republicans will explain to me how my assumption is mistaken and there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for this bill.

 
#150 Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 8:57 PM EDT

Um, there is no other reason for that bill Chet…. But I would love to hear an answer too.

(Now to be fair, I’m sure there is a Democrat who came up with a blatantly stupid idea that passed as well, but that does not excuse or explain the absurdity of your NC law)

 
#151 Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 8:58 PM EDT

Ben has turned into a man of fewer words…

 
#152
TsaoTsuG
Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 10:28 PM EDT

No one ever accused the Republicans of being dumb and not exploiting their edvantage to give themselves even more advantage. In Illinois the Democrats press their advantage in the legislature to gerrymander the wildest districts you could imagine. Hispanics (mostly from Mexico) in the south side (west and north of White Sox stadium) are connected are linked to the majority Puerto Rican hispanics in the north side (Humboldt Park) into one ‘supermajority’ district that looks like a horse shoe and has to go out beyond the city limits into Cicero and Berwyn…because they’d rather concentrate them into one district rather than disperse their influence into 3 or four district where they might tilt the electoral balance.
It is both racial and party politics. Black politicians absolutely do not want the hispanic vote (which is growing at tremendous rates, to spill into ‘Black’ districts, where the population is going down just as fast.

What you see with North Carolina is just another version (a semi-rural state one) of the old Chicago adage I’ve mentioned before: “Don’t send me nobody, nobody sent”.
Surprised you’re surprised. Politicians have been way, way ahead of the statisticians for a long, long time. And, in the deep south the Republicans learned well from all the losses to the Democrats after Reconstruction.

 
#153
TsaoTsuG
Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 10:38 PM EDT

He admitted YOUR mistakes, Classic Example. (see #133, last graph).)Save this thread to show your son.

 
#154
Ben
Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 11:32 PM EDT

Mr Geoff,

I didn’t forget about you. I just came in from work, and buying my groceries. A man has to eat.

Listen Geoff, this thread has me wore out. First of all, congratulations for having a preference, instead of saying “I don’t know”.

I honestly don’t care if your republican, democrat, whatever. You make it sound like BO is the first president to be attacked. They all are Geoff. Every single one of them. The opposite party will always point fingers, until we citizens demand a shake up in Washington, and demand these bastards to do their jobs, instead of passing joke bills to piss the other party off.

My point is this Geoff. If you put all your eggs in one basket, you will be disappointed. I firmly believe if you do your homework, you can find good in all parties. It makes me sick to my stomach that people vote for their party, when they do no research. We as a nation have made this into a battle of parties. Nobody cares about truth anymore. Money buys votes, and people only care about their agenda these days.

It was a monumental achievement for BO. The first black president. We have came a long way as a nation. This is what irks me. “I voted for BO, because I am black, and he is black. “. That’s hogwash. Many people at my work are complaining about Obamacare. I keep quiet, but I say to myself it’s your own damn fault you voted just on color. That would be like me voting for Mitt, because he is tall like me. What a joke!

Bottom line is this Geoff. Whether it be Fox, MSNBC, CNN, they all have their favorites. The media is no longer fair. They will dig dirt on these presidents till they reach the fire of hell. Again, you made it sound like BO was the first president to be attacked. Again Geoff, they all are.

BTW, I like Bill O’Riley. I respect, and watch him. I think he really tries to be fair. I used to love Beck, but I couldn’t take the gloom and doom of his shows. Too bad, as he knows his history, loves this country, but I don’t know. I can’t put my finger on it, but he really tiered me off. The rest are lunatics.

One more thing. Myself and Clarion may very well been naive or defensive. Though I will add this. We know what we want in a president and leader. We do our homework, and we do it well. If that makes us defensive or naive, then it is what it is. Unlike most in this country, we know what we want. Society today for the most part has no clue what they want, and wonder why they bitch and moan when they don’t get what they want? It’s called being an informed citizen.

 
#155 Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 12:32 AM EDT

3 things…

1) I did not make it sound like he was the “first” to be attacked. You decided to take it that way. You brought up BO in post #125… He was the topic… Not the 43 presidents before him. If you took my on-topic comment and applied it to your inner off-topic narrative, that’s on you.

2) I don’t think Clarion is naive. I think he is stubborn. I’m sure he can live with that assessment.

3) your last sentence kills me. You basically imply that people who don’t vote your way are not informed. If they were informed, how could they vote any other way??? It’s not a difference of opinion or strategy, its a difference of preparation… Riiiiigggghhhhhhttttt…. I can tell you this there are ten of millions of informed Democrats. Do you think that Republican voters are a happier bunch than registered democrats on average? Are you happy with how things are going? How could you not be? You’re informed… You voted in the correct manner… You must be happy with how things are turning out… It’s ridiculous – you aren’t happy because you ended up in the minority, and lefties aren’t happy because the GOP is a gigantic filibuster… Those of us in the middle aren’t happy because the system is broken due to out of control partisanship. It has nothing to do with being informed or not. (Oh, and its also a ridiculous notion to imply that all republican voters are “informed”… Which you are doing by incorporating “we” and “society” into your comments)…

Carry on.

 
#156 Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 12:58 AM EDT

Oh and another thing… I love the line about “I voted for Obama because he is black and I am black.” That is such a minuscule % of voters it’s ridiculous…. Minorities have always voted heavily along Democratic lines. It wouldn’t have mattered what color the Dem candidate was… They were voting for him/her. Then there is the fact that the majority of people who voted for Obama were Caucasian…

Your party doesn’t appeal to women (45%) or African-Americans (6%) or Hispanics (27%) or the youth (37%)… You have a serious issue if you can’t figure out how to bridge those gaps. It has nothing to do with the color, gender, or age of your candidates… Women weren’t going to line up for Palin… Blacks weren’t going to flip for Cain… The youth didn’t flock to Ryan…. It’s your party’s platform and your party’s tenor that tunes those enormous demographics out. As long as your constituent-base allows FOX and Rush to be the voice of your party you will continue to struggle in the polls. The only thing that will help you is a massive failing by the Democrats, which is why GOP leadership is taking the tactics they currently are.

But hey, I’m a white male over the age of 30… O’Reilly talks my language, so you have a shot with me… And some of your candidates earn my votes. It’s just that adult, white males no longer make up the majority of voters… So your party better figure out how to appeal honestly to other groups… Which will take compromise… Something that your leadership was basically bred to disdain.

Now carry on.

 
#157
Ben
Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 2:51 AM EDT

I’m done Geoff. Think what you will. That’s how I operate. I’m really worn on this thread. No more debating. May the Scoopers cast their lots. I’m sure we will cross again. Tell ya what, when I am up in Caribou, Maine, I’ll send you a Glen Beck postcard. Blessings,

Ben

 
#158
Ben
Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 2:54 AM EDT

Btw, I am a 32 yr old white male, and please don’t assume I am Republican. I belong to neither, though I tilt that way. Yes, your right. We need to figure out how to be more appealing. Maybe if we promise to print more money like your good friend BO?

 
#159
Ben
Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 3:01 AM EDT

How tempted I am to pull the trigger though. Though I won’t. Hey, our differences make the world spin. Myself, you, Chet, Clarion, etc. I’d be a boring world if everyone was like me. (Though sane and able to make solid decisions. Parents raised me well). Ok, I am checking out of this hotel. Fire away, and have your fun.

 
#160
Ben
Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 3:05 AM EDT

Fire away at me like they will with Hamid Karzi when American influence is out of Afghanistan. What a goner.

 
#161
Harvard for Hillbillies
Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 5:25 AM EDT

I’ll say one thing…It’s damn more pleasing to look at Michelle Obama than Laura the Librarian.

I always vote for the First Lady that will provide the best fantasies.

The Repubs are fool of drama because Obama got Osama. Barack ain’t soft on terrorists…Pisses off the Repub Establishment because they wanted to be John Wayne.

 
#162
Harvard for Hillbillies
Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 5:36 AM EDT

… [full] of drama.

 
#163
Chet
Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 8:32 AM EDT

Headline from this morning’s newspaper (a far from left leaning Gannett paper)…

“Republicans Add Abortion Restriction Rules to Motorcycle Safety Bill”

Anybody want to buy a legislature? They’re cheap down here.

 
#164
Chet
Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 8:35 AM EDT

Ben, I got $50 that says Karzi will be a resident of Texas within 24 months.

 
#165
Hoosier Clarion
Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 10:31 AM EDT

Yep, Just like the 2 dems getting the Cornhusker Kickback and the Louisiana Purchase.

 
#166
Ron
Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 11:11 AM EDT

Chet, Our Indiana can out-pork any of your guys. Couple of examples…1) It is now against the law of Indiana for anyone to take pictures/video of any activity at Corporate livestock or meat processing facilities If you document illegal activity using a camera you will be arrested……..2) Rural land used as a summer camp for kids for many years. Farmer up the road sells to a Corporate outfit, who needs Legislative approval to raise 10,000 hogs for bacon and ribs and etc. ALL in the area against the approval. They were approved. Downstream is the camp with lake, streams and river. Money talks………3) Indianapolis violence. 8-9-10 shot in the last week or so. 4-5 area malls have had gun issues with shots fired. Indianpolis Black Expo start this week. One local government guy said ‘downtown could be a battleground’. Mayor does not approve $6million funding for police. He does spend $6million for a ‘world class cricket field……So match that if you can……The abortion/motorcycle thing you mentioned, in a sick way makes sense. Helmets/ leathers, boots – wear protection.

 
#167
Ron
Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 11:23 AM EDT

Republican for most of my life. Changed with the Bush fabrication for Iraq. Which was probably a Rumsfield or Chaney thing. Another change to Independent. Maybe Ron Paul is right? Could not vote Republican because of all the crazies hanging around.

Dustin/Jeremy…Need a “politics” catagory.

 
#168 Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 12:44 PM EDT

“Think what you will” is an interesting statement… I’m not really adding much editorial to the content. Obviously I have opinions about some of the political and media mouthpieces on either side of the aisle, but the rest is fact… It’s not really a “think what you will” type of thing. If the GOP doesn’t make a concerted effort at the leadership level to come back to center a bit, the party will die with the Clarions of the world.

You simply cannot have the demographics I listed be that against you and survive… Especially the youth. Pretty sure they are the future.

The party can be as fiscally conservative and pro-business as they want, but if they don’t soften on social issues they won’t last another 20 years.

If anyone disagrees with that, I would live to hear their reasoning…

 
#169 Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 3:54 PM EDT

By the way Ben, and I mean this sincerely… No hard feelings… I’m just debating, it’s absolutely not personal.

 
#170
Ben
Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 9:21 PM EDT

Your fine Geoff. I enjoyed it. Nothing wrong with debating a passion or views, as long as you keep the mudslinging out. Thought we did well.

 


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