Live Discussion: Illinois vs. Indiana

88 comments by   |   Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 10:04 am EDT
 

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88 comments:
#1
IUGRAD89
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 11:13 AM EDT

First 3 times with the ball. 2 turnovers and 0-2 from the free throw line. Got to love the start. Best thing is getting the 2nd half issues out of the way at the beginning.

Down 0-9 in first 3 minutes.

We have them right where we want them.

 
#2
IUGRAD89
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 12:06 PM EDT

Perfect halftime scenario for this team. Didn’t play well – down a couple points at the half. I feel more confident now to win than if they were up double digits.

Two coaches not known for their halftime adjustment abilities. So hopefully coaching comes into play minimally. So – better team should win.

 
#3
Karen Conner
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 1:06 PM EDT

Perfect ending to this perfectly awful season. And to think, we had the Big 10 Freshman of the year and a second all big ten player on our roster. Doubt very much that we can even win one in the NIT.

 
#4
IUGRAD89
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 1:12 PM EDT

To say CTC is an underachiever and pathetic coach would be a huge understatement. As Knight once said about Illinois’ Lou Henson ” never has so little been done with so much “.

Illini are subpar team and we’ve lost to them twice. LOL.

Could not be more disgusted. About 5 most wins this season for this team. Lost every single one. No fundamentals – no intelligence – no HEART – and no chemistry – and NO COACHING.

Losing to teams with less talent is somewhat hard to do. CTC has made it an art form.

 
#5
NoMendacity
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 1:12 PM EDT

Would NOW be a good time to suggest that Crean needs to GO?

 
#6
AWinAZ
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 1:13 PM EDT

Once again, a collapse. Up 5 with 12 min left & we take a quick 3 & miss, then proceed to play about as bad of basketball as is possible for 3 min. Next thing you know, we are down 6 & scrambling down the stretch. The the inevitable happens; Yogi starts taking bombs from 25 ft and there’s no penetration and movement and feeding the post that got us up to begin with.

Yogi has poor recognition of what is available to him. And then there’s Hollowell, who flat out sucks.

18 TOs was it? That means there’s only 22 or so left to stomach from here with 1 more NIT game. I have a countdown board at my house now to help.

 
#7
IUGRAD89
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 1:14 PM EDT

meant to write: 5 must win games

 
#8
NoMendacity
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 1:15 PM EDT

I’m feeling the same bittersweet relief that was present when I had to euthanize my beloved, long suffering dog!

 
#9
IUGRAD89
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 1:25 PM EDT

That’s so true – loving this team is like loving a cheating wife – watching your kids fail at something or your dog scenario.

What does a CREAN AND CRIMSON OR WE’RE BACK T-shirt go for these days??

March Sadness. Thank you CTC and staff for putting it all together. 4th ranked recruiting class and the 10th ranked recruiting class last two years and year 6 of the CTC era. Well done.

 
#10
coachv
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 1:31 PM EDT

pathetic. no improvement from start of season to the finish. same turnovers from same players, especially sheehey and Ferrell. same ridiculous offense. no wonder fischer left. what in the world will happen if vonleh goes pro leaving us with zero bigs next season? too bad glass signed crean to an extention.

 
#11
Harvard for Hillbillies
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 1:57 PM EDT

The “Hurryin’ Hoosiers” certainly returned, Fred Glass.

They hurried right out of Indy.

Now you go hurry up and draft another contract extension with another 10 million dollars for man and his water bottle that hurries out of his chair at the end of hurried press conferences.

You’re a very fortunate man to be an athletic director at a university with so much storied tradition in a state where basketball is woven like no other place into the passions its population. Tom Crean is an even more fortunate coach. At any other campus in any other state, the attendance would drop off the cliff with such underachieving and flippant regard an unparalleled loyal fan base.

You should be ashamed to cash your paychecks. You should be ashamed to take money from Adidas to wear those uniforms today. You work at a place that still fills the seats to the rafters even though the current product is so grossly insulting to the history and the knowledgeable men that once headed up the program.

It’s a rare thing for seats to be full in the face of incompetency. It’s sad that you and Tom Crean made what should have been a valued honor turned into such reward for your collective empty blow, carnival talk, and fireworks. It’s shameful that such unique and loving fans of a game are left with such dimwits somehow fortunate enough through the happenstance an NCAA witch hunt to be left with such job security irrelevant of qualifications and basketball IQ.

Maybe one day Indiana fans will wise up…Maybe they’ll someday realize that teaching should replace selling and humble regard such a loyal fan base should replace preaching. Maybe one day they’ll quit filling the seats to reward your incompetence and your condescension toward the Indiana fan as ignorant, content, weak, uninspired, gullible, and unable to differentiate frauds from caring and educated leaders.

 
#12
Hoosier Hopeful
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 1:58 PM EDT

This season was terrible on so many levels. Other than Voneah and Williams the incoming class was very overrated. The returning players such as Hollowell and Etherington should not be playing at a premier program like Indiana and would not even make the bench squad for teams like Duke and Kansas. Coaching was a problem all season but the bottom line is this team is not very good. With Vonleah leaving for the pros, not sure what Indiana is going to have for front-court players next year, Crean does not seem to be able to get more than the occassional 5-star recruit, while other major programs are getting many every year.

 
#13
JeffreyV
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 2:00 PM EDT

Awful. Not a ‘team’, but a group of players. For this to happen (pathetic. no improvement from start of season to finish) rests squarely on the “Coach”.

 
#14
RAM
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 2:08 PM EDT

During the first few years of this coaching regime excuses were not only tolerated and condoned, they were vigorously defended. Justified or not that mindset set a VERY BAD precedent. All excuses do is put your program on the fast track to mediocrity.Look out the window at the scenery. Have we arrived yet?

 
#15
Harvard for Hillbillies
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 2:18 PM EDT

Giving anyone on the bench of our coaching staff a break by claiming a team is “not very good” is a total cop out.

The coaches recruit and build the team. They create the scholly crunches that make kids questions whether or not they should stay. They decide the mix of local and faraway talent. They take hyped and ranked stars that they personally select and personally divvy up the PT in their practice workshops every day of the week.

If it’s not a good team, then it’s built by coaches that need to figure out how to make it a better team. I do believe that’s in the job description. A coach is a teacher. A coach is supposed to figure out how to extract the most from his talent and build the pieces of varied skill sets into a confident group stronger than the sum of its parts.

Can we stop with the excuses? Some people say it’s a “bridge year.” I have trouble with that term when I can’t witness coaching that can even bridge two halves a game together.

 
#16
IUGRAD89
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 2:20 PM EDT

Last year Florida Gulf Coast spent money inside and out of their arena to put their nickname “Dunk City” throughout.

Is there money left in the renovation budget to get “Turnover Town” put throughout Assembly Hall?

 
#17
t
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 2:22 PM EDT

Problems started to become evident about two thirds way through 2012-13 season. Though IU won big ten conference…At that time IU passing and cutting game was suspect. At the first half of that season Victor was dribbling and spectacularly getting to the bucket scoring and the whole team was playing well….but after IU had been scouted and played second time around Victor was dribbling and getting tied up and losing the ball more….no outside shot for Cody and team was less and less effective…lost in big ten tournament….lucky to beat Temple in NCAA tournament….and not even competitive against Syracuse…..As a result recruiting has taken a major hit and seems to be at a lower level for the future…..This is a philosophy+System=Coaching inferiority….As for young players = Wichita State back court both,are sophomores…. No improvement in sight.

 
#18
Harvard for Hillbillies
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 2:30 PM EDT

Tom Crean’s suits are dapper and cleanly pressed…At least he brought “Starch Madness” to Indy.

 
#19
iufan23
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 2:33 PM EDT

Never thought I’d say that the FB program is looking more solid than BB. Our team lacked chemistry and a “killer instinct.” We all remember the days when teams dreaded coming into Assembly Hall because of what was bound to happen to them. Now, they look forward to it because they realize they will face a team with some talent but no will to win and SLOPPPY!!

 
#20
Harvard for Hillbillies
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 3:01 PM EDT

It’s what a lot of people/fans wanted…Now they have it. Two major sports balanced in bottom-dwelling mediocrity forever struggling to play with the big boys. Is that acceptable at a university the size of IU? Is that acceptable with the level of coaching and AD salaries payed while watching the costs for those attending college skyrocketing?

The biggest news story that our basketball program could muster from an ESPN broadcast was videotape of Assembly Hall popping at its old and outdated seams. More fireworks and more money thrown at football. Just watch how irrelevant IU basketball can become. You ain’t seen nothin’ yet. Without Zeller getting it off life support for two years, it would have been deader than a doornail.

And Crean has zero personality…No ability to be the least self-deprecating. No ability to be publicly display humility and accountability. Nothing but stuffy puritanical gobbledygook spiting onto the microphone. More stale and uninteresting than a 90-year-old Bob Knight. Nothing of a worthwhile captured soundbite…Nothing of fun..Nothing of sense of humor. Nothing of stimulating and different perspectives. He’s perfect for the most boring cornball state in the corny Southern Indiana new Bible belt evolved from greater Kentucky. Dull, insulting, and preachy to wear as window dressing for a stale and humorless bore in stiff suit.

It will take Indiana three times the years a Sampson cancer to recover from the mind-boggling backward culture and incompetency brought to Bloomington via CharlaTom ValvoCrean. With the protection his holier-than-thou faith affords him, I doubt Indiana can ever rebound. Frozen in ineptitude while frozen in the self-righteous attitudes of podium princes that couldn’t be cosmopolitan in a 1970′s Bloomington.

 
#21
Double Down
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 3:17 PM EDT

I slipped Fred Glass $20 and a half-full pack of Trident Spearmint gum to make Indiana Basketball on par with IUFB.

Little did I think he could be bought for such a bargain.

Time to get send out that care package for Vlad Putin. I have 2 day old Chinese leftovers in the fridge.

 
#22
IUGRAD89
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 3:52 PM EDT

There should be plenty of money in the IU budget to make a coaching change.

After all – think about how much money IU saves with Tom Crean as coach. They save a lot in tournament travel expenses – hotels – travel meal money – airfare costs – etc.. The man is the PRIUS of coaching.

 
#23
ron
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 5:53 PM EDT

Maybe, besides the ^^^, IU may be positioned for the non-conference games. Teams from small schools get a lot of money to come to Btown so IU can win games by 40-50 points. After this season maybe some schools will be paying IU to show up at their school to take the non-conference beating.

 
#24
Hoosier1987
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 7:13 PM EDT

Sorry to say but we are stuck with Crean for at least 2-3 more years.With the money IU would have to pay him to buy him out..could not get a top coach to replace him.Fred Glass should be the one fired for his stupidity in extending his contract,raise,and buy-out.After 2-3 more seasons Crean will have IU so bad that buying him out will do no good…no one will want this job.If IU does have the money to buy him out they better do it now…Greg Marshall will be a highly sought after coach in about 4 weeks.Michigan is a younger team than IU..but they have a coach.Crean has never won and will never win..he is just not a coach.I would take a chance with Dane Fife over Crean.Heck I would take Damon Bailey over Crean and Damon’s team would give this years team a good game.

 
#25 Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 7:18 PM EDT

That was brutal, but a fitting end to the B1G season.

Clearly there shouldn’t be any compliments for Crean, but some of these criticisms are flat out wrong. Myopia runs rampant amongst IU fans.

0-1 in B1G Tourney… Assuming they even make the NIT, and since they base it on fan support quite often they should, I’m guessing they are 0-1 there too.

I sorta feel bad for Sheehey, but then I remember that he shoulda been playing like this from the start and maybe the rest of the team would have followed by the end of the season.

 
#26
batman1952
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 7:33 PM EDT

It,s plain too see that neither crean or glass know anything about basketball.

 
#27
Harvard for Hillbillies
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 7:41 PM EDT

I’m thinking Crean purposefully sabotaged the season in order to take the NBA attention off of Vonleh. Little concerted effort to get him involved…No NCAA appearance for his game to shine…No ESPN stage from the Big 10 tournament. Nothing like late season success and some solid games in March to get the scouts even hungrier and move a player’s stock up along with his confidence.

Crean is as slippery as they get….No Luke Fischer next season means dim the lights on Noah.

 
#28 Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 8:08 PM EDT

…he’s still going to be a top 10 pick if he wants to go, Harvard. Not defending Crean here, he had a bad year, but NBA scouts are not concerned with Vonleh not playing in March. They’re pretty much sold.

 
#29 Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 8:11 PM EDT

Here is the running total so far in this comment section…

Valid Crean Criticisms
– poor at halftime adjustments
– underachiever
– loses often to teams with less talent
– wasn’t able to show marked improvement this season
– ridiculous offense
– teaching should replace preaching
– wasn’t able to get them to play as a team
– turnover town, sloppy

PRIUS of coaching was a great line…

Invalid Creanicisms:
– He lacks personality (he’s engaging… just not to you)
– Incoming class was overrated (Vonleh was as advertised, Williams shows promise, Robinson was better than Williams for the most part, Davis showed promise and heart, and Fischer was just coming on and will probably be very good for Marquette. We beat 4 ranked teams starting 2 or 3 freshman. The problem wasn’t that they were overrated, it was that your expectations of freshman are out of whack…)
– Crean seems to only get the occasional 5-Star recruit, while other programs get many every year (this is a laugher. IU is one of only a handful of programs to have 4 consecutive classes with a McDonald’s AA, which is still the highest award in HS hoops. It’s a fallacy that other schools are getting “many” every year. I’ve broken this down year-by-year on here before and the only school that does “many” consistently is UK and look where its gotten them the last couple years…)
– recruiting has taken a major hit and seems to be at a lower level going forward (we signed a McD’s AA again for 2014 and beat out UNC for a top 30 guard… only 10 of the ESPN top 60 have verballed for 2015, and we’re currently in the mix for 12 others, so what is this based on… nothing.)
– Wichita State’s backcourt are sophomores (and who exactly did they beat this year? Their best wins were BYU, Saint Louis, Tennessee, and Alabama… I’m pretty sure Ferrell would have won POY in that conference. Vonleh probably goes for 16 and 12 and is a 1st teamer. We had one common opponent – Evansville – which we beat by 31 and they beat twice by 14 and 22… While they were beating up on the likes of Drake and Illinois State we were giving tough games to MSU and UM and OSU and UW)

Keep your criticisms rooted in reality folks…

By the way Harvard, I also liked “Starch Madness”

 
#30 Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 8:14 PM EDT

Yeah Harvard, besides the fact that post #27 is flat out ridiculous, it also shows a stunning lack of awareness of what NBA scouts care about.

 
#31
Double Down
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 8:27 PM EDT

Geoff, I heard that Tom Crean has a 777 under a tarp in his backyard, too.

 
#32
wiggy72
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 9:07 PM EDT

I think Geoff summed it up pretty well. Crean does everything well, but teach. He would make a great NBA coach. I know the moderators can’t fathom B. Stevens leaving Boston, but Hoosiers know there’s a chance. I think Stevens enjoys the teaching aspect of the game, not the draw it up and let the talent execute it ( ie. Crean ). As RMK used to point out, this is a university and basketball is another class players take. Crean i

 
#33
AWinAZ
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 9:07 PM EDT

Love “Turnover Town”! They could paint that on the falling “rainout” beams.

Davis was playing about as well as anybody before today’s game, but his use was sparing again today. Instead more Hollowell and Ethrington.

And the Big Ten FOY gets 6 pts.

This group of young men played about as well as I’ve seen them play for the first 8 min of the 2nd half. Then SPLAT! They stopped doing what they got them there. Running the ineffective 3 pt line weave, standing at 30 feet watching the shot clock, dribbling into double teams, and taking ill advised bombs from Greenwood.

I’ve said this all year but here’s what we are looking at, so man-up everyone and face reality:
At most 1 more yr with Vonleh, then he leaves
Likely 1 more yr with Yogi, then he leaves with a diploma & an NBA salary (he’s a good NBA PG that is in dire need of such things….just ask Olidipo in Orlando)
Blackmon is likely 1 & done if he has the year next year that we all expect given his insane HS #s

Then what? Then who’s left on the roster? Perea? Hollowell? I’ll take Davis all day long but he’s essentially a freshman next yr given his stunning lack of deserved PT.

Settle in y’all and watch that Big 10 Champ banner wave in the breeze in the rafters. Let’s hope that beam stays put.

 
#34
RAM
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 9:08 PM EDT

Maybe hidden under that tarp is a cohesive coaching philosophy unless playground basketball counts as one.

 
#35
AWinAZ
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 9:10 PM EDT

Spot on Wiggy! Spot on! He would make a good NBA coach, or at worst the league’s butt-ugliest cheerleader.

Is there precedence for trading a college coach for an NBA coach? And the Celts could pick up his remaining salary? Please……

 
#36
Greg
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 9:15 PM EDT

While 17-15 looks bad, when you adjust the schedule for the nine cupcake teams we beat, only one of which had a winning record as of Feb. 22 (Stony Brook), the record looks even worse (8-15). Turnovers this season have been at epidemic proportions with IU (as of Feb. 14– not going to update every week!) ranked 335 out of 345 teams with assist/turnover ratio at 330). This team is clearly not well-disciplined in taking care of the BB and today reflected that once again.

 
#37
Harvard for Hillbillies
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 9:20 PM EDT

I don’t care about my lack of awareness of what NBA scouts care about. If anything, that’s the entire problem with a fan base that pays more attention to that empty talk than simply getting the most out of your talent.

Hell, if were not playing to win, merely playing the game to showcase draft picks, then we could hire you as coach. Are you “engaging?”

I care about the lack of awareness to capitalize with a player of Noah’s caliber. And whether or not Noah is as attractive as always to the NBA scouts, the coaching staff of this team should be ashamed at how they failed to develop and utilize his talents. It’s borderline sabotage and it’s educationally sinful to leave such potential handcuffed to your ineptitude and arrogance in deflecting accountability for such undercutting of young man’s promise.

 
#38
Harvard for Hillbillies
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 9:23 PM EDT

…[we're] not playing to win

 
#39
TJ in Texas
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 9:27 PM EDT

there was a time ,as in movie “Hoosiers” the townspeople would have marched onto coach creans yard and demanded answers.just as substandard as his coaching is his understanding of how pissed off Hoosiernation is; I would gladly hang his sorry ass in effigy and put it on Fred Glass’s front yard

 
#40
Punjab
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 9:42 PM EDT

Egads. Such hostility. Glad I wasn’t able to post when I was all bent out of shape, too. I might have been put on notice by the Scoop staff for using a few choice words while caught up in the moment.

Didn’t see the first 25-odd minutes, so I can’t comment on that. Came home for lunch just after halftime– long enough to watch a five point lead quickly evaporate into a six point deficit. (Not coincidentally, it was right about the time Gordon came in the game and promptly turned it over.) And then watch another guy who hasn’t been playing particularly well have a career game against us. Finally, watched us show just enough fight to come back and give us hope before falling apart again. Same old story.

I’ll let you guys go ahead and vent a while longer. I just worked myself back up, so I’ll go sit and stew for a while. Bottoms up, fellas. Cheers.

 
#41 Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 9:55 PM EDT

Harvard, actually as a coach I’m the anti-Crean. I can be engaging, but I prefer to surround myself with engaging people and be a listener. My strengths are actually as an assistant coach because I don’t particularly like the limelight or the selling of a program or a lot of the jobs a head coach does. I like teaching, I like working 1-on-1 with players, I really enjoy scouting… Much more than recruiting. I think my offense trumps whatever it is Crean has been trying to run – it’s a 4-out motion with lots of ripples and reads, that values the extra pass, and doesn’t care who scores. I consistently took less athletic and talented teams and beat teams we weren’t supposed to. I value shooting and IQ over athleticism by about 1,000,000%. I believe strongly in analytics (much like Stevens) and care less about vert or 40 times. Defensively I think I’m strong enough at teaching fundamentals, but my real strength is scouting the other team and designing specific gameplans to take them out of what they do well, both as individuals and a team.

So if you want to hire me, do it under proper pretenses. Know what you’re getting.

 
#42
Double Down
Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 10:24 PM EDT

I want to thank TJ for putting some folding money into my pocket. I just won the pool by betting on TJ for which commenter that will have the most inappropriate reaction to our first round exit.

You’re my boy, Blue!

 
#43
AWinAZ
Friday, March 14, 2014 - 1:02 AM EDT

Some interesting stats, somewhat maddening actually;

In this game, Davis plays a grand total of 6 min & scores 2 pts & grabs 3 RB. And he’s been playing very well the last 2 weeks & the pregame press conf. we hear about how well he’s been playing. Hollowell played 18 min, goes 0-5 but does grab 6 RB.

How is a team supposed to rally around each other & the team when the above happens. How can this Hollowell kid play over Davis. Totally illogical. Davis did foul twice & let 2 guys score but there was 0 resistance from the perimeter on both drives.

I digress….season stats to fathom

Assists = 368 Turnovers = 482. Only 3 players with positive A/TO: Yogi, Gordon, Marlin (3:1)
Yogi shot the ball 121 more times more than anyone else….(recall he’s the PG). But he’s “our best shooter”, right?
Yogi has the lowest FG% of the other 4 core starters. And he’s the 4th lowest FG% on the whole team!

Talk about our poor ability to shoot, but…..
We outshot opponents 44% to 41%
We outshot them from 3 pt line 34% to 30%
We outshot them from FT line 73% to 71%

We out rebounded opponents 38 to 31 / game. Likely the only reason we had a “winning” record given the TO disparity.

Stats don’t lie.

 
#44
Hoosier Clarion
Friday, March 14, 2014 - 6:51 AM EDT

I read a startling statistic(I did not research to check if true), IU has won just 4 games in the last 11 BTT.

 
#45
t
Friday, March 14, 2014 - 8:00 AM EDT

1. IU basketball coaching system has got players frustrated….Last years #1 rankd team eventually became frustrated also as season wore on and plays that once worked did not work as well during last third of season.

2. Recruiting is not up to par and has taken a hit….The best Indiana high school players are not respecting the opportunity to come to IU…. (Blackmon comes after KY does not work out…others are not jumping to go to IU and are going to other programs.

2. Recruiting reminds me of Mike Davis recruits from Texas that turned out not as good as promised.

2. Fischer leaves…I do not by his reason….if he was buying into IU philosophy, system and experience he would overcome home sickness. That was a big loss.

3. Tre Lyles recruiting loss. Why not Blueitt???

4. Wichita State goes to final 4 plus follows up that season with this season and did lose a couple players from last year…..I use Wichita State as example, but there are other teams with young players doing well.

5. Additionally, expectations should be that of an elite program that leads the big ten not in the middle….days turn into weeks, weeks turn into months, months turn into years, years turn into decades without a national championship and no elite program for IU basketball.

 
#46 Friday, March 14, 2014 - 8:35 AM EDT

T – which recruits haven’t turned out like promised?

2009
Watford – had a decent career
Hulls – over-achieved
Creek – if not for injuries, he proved he would have been a great Hoosier.

2010
Sheehey – wasn’t highly regarded, scored over 1000 pts
Dipo – ummmm became about 1000x better than anyone imagined when he signed

2011
Zeller – program changer

2012
Yogi – 2nd team all-B1G as a soph
Hollowell – frustrating under-achiever thus far
Perea – frustrating under-achiever thus far

2013
Vonleh – B1G FOY and led conf in rebounding
Williams – shows real promise on offense and ended season strong, 2nd on team in rebounding
Fischer – left program
Robinson – wasn’t expected to play by much of the fan base, but ended up starting several games and being 5th leading scorer with similar numbers to Oladipo as a freshman.

So based on this list of Crean recruits the only 2 that haven’t lived up to their billing are 2 guys from Indiana – Hollowell and Perea…

Don’t let facts get in the way of your arguments though t…

 
#47 Friday, March 14, 2014 - 9:00 AM EDT

T – Your Wichita State example is brutal for a few glaring reasons…

1) there are huge differences between freshmen and sophomores… The adjustment to the college game is tough. Last year WSU started 1 and this year they start 0. Neither year have they had more than 2 freshman contributors. (IU STARTED 2 or 3 freshman every game). Both years they’ve started 3 JR/SR’s.

2) WSU has played 1 ranked team all season.. Saint Louis… Who wasn’t ranked at the time and they demolished by 5 whole points. Listen, I’m not saying they aren’t good, because they are, but if they were in the B1G they would have 5-8 losses.

3) you remember who WSU had to beat to get to the FF last year? The 1 seed was Gonzaga, another mid-major… They had to beat Syracuse… No wait, it was LaSalle (13 seed) that they had to beat in the Sweet 16. Pretty sure IU could’ve handled LaSalle…

But don’t let logic get in the way of your points t, carry on…

 
#48
t
Friday, March 14, 2014 - 9:00 AM EDT

1. Where I differ…. I would include Creek due to injury (not placing blame here)and Fischer left program (???)….

2. IU lacks another major impact player big man (and when Vonleh leaves) IU will need 2 major (1 elite and 1 semi elite, both that elite programs wanted impact player big men. IU really had trouble at the forward positions this year that led to much frustration. (I do think Davis may grow into a steady dependable impact player if he is there thru his senior year).

3. Is IU going to be Elite program vs. Above average program….right now IU is struggling to be average.

4. Example: Raymond Spradling 4 star espn 81 recruit is not good enough (Pitino was at game looking at his recruit, not Spradling….and IU offers Spradling along with Vanderbilt, Butler, Clemson, and Xavier….So you try to make him good enough to play in big ten and if you get to many recruits like this = average middle of the pack big ten program after a couple lower finishes….this is what I see currently trending.

 
#49
t
Friday, March 14, 2014 - 10:00 AM EDT

Raymond Spalding not Spradling

 
#50 Friday, March 14, 2014 - 10:03 AM EDT

first of all, you can’t blame IU for Creek getting hurt… they targeted a good player, he signed, he showed up, he was as advertised, he got hurt… that’s not what you were implying with your comments.

ok so we offered “Spaulding”, but we also have offers out to

Diamond Stone – *****
Steven Zimmerman – *****
Elijah Thomas – *****
Doral Moore – *****
Luke Kennard – *****
Isiah Briscoe – *****
Carlton Bragg – *****
PJ Dozier – *****
Daniel Giddens – **** (Top 60)
Jalen Coleman – **** (Top 60)
Esa Ahmad – **** (Top 60)
Hyron Edwards – **** top in-state recruit

Now maybe we get none of these guys, but maybe we get 2… maybe we get a different guy that is just as highly thought of that isn’t currently offered (similar to the Vonleh situation). The point is you can’t just pick and choose who you want to include to show a trend. You have to actually look at the facts, which show we are offering to, competing for, and to this point consistently signing, very highly sought after players.

AGAIN… There are lots of valid criticisms of Crean and the current state of the program… why must some of you completely make stuff up to further your agenda? It isn’t necessary. Factual ammo is right at your fingertips.

 
#51
batman1952
Friday, March 14, 2014 - 10:24 AM EDT

You must have long arms to keep patting yourself on the back (geoff) I,m going to vote for you to be coach of the year.

 
#52
t
Friday, March 14, 2014 - 11:13 AM EDT

Elite program vs. mediocrity….For elite program we are not getting enough nor are we consistently getting as good as what you thinking we are getting….IU is not heading in elite direction.

 
#53
Hoosier1987
Friday, March 14, 2014 - 7:29 PM EDT

Indiana has not been an elite program for many years.When Davis got fired there should have been 8-10 major college coaches trying to get this job.Not one applied.Few from Gonzaga thought about but stayed there.Hiring Davis after the interim year was a hugh mistake…Sampson was even worse.Crean was no better hire.Was Crean really the best IU could get??? If so that shows how low the program has slipped.It will be 10-15 years before IU sniffs another Final 4.

 
#54 Friday, March 14, 2014 - 9:04 PM EDT

t – I didn’t say we are heading in the right direction. I disagree that we aren’t getting enough. I’m just losing faith that Crean knows what to do with it. I think K or Izzo or Stevens or Pitino or Donovan would take these same players to the Final Four.

 
#55 Friday, March 14, 2014 - 9:06 PM EDT

And by “these same players” I mean last year’s roster and next year’s roster if NV stays.

 
#56
Rico Chet
Friday, March 14, 2014 - 9:38 PM EDT

Go home Geoff. Every time someone posts, it’s like you have to outside them. Let this blog breathe a little. I’m already tired of your ” I’m right, you’re wrong” attitude. I thought you was dialing back? Guess not. Smart ass posts if you ask me.

 
#57
Rico Chet
Friday, March 14, 2014 - 9:39 PM EDT

” Have to out due them”.

 
#58
Punjab
Friday, March 14, 2014 - 11:16 PM EDT

I think we have to define what it means to be elite. Historically, we’re a top three program. Only two schools have more NC banners. But since the Beatles, several teams have tied or surpassed us in that department. Contemporarily, teams like Syracuse and UConn and Florida and Louisville, and to a lesser extent Gonzaga and Wichita State are far more elite than we are right now, whatever that means. It’s fleeting. Hell, San Francisco was an elite team during the Korean War. Seton Hall was once a big deal not so long ago.

The point is, programs fluctuate. The fact that Kansas and Duke have maintained their runs for well over a decade (minus a few early exits in the tourney) without a major blemish is remarkable. But they have established coaches who can recruit, adapt to the times, adjust to their players, and adjust to the in-game situations without avoiding significant pitfalls. They have HOFs. That’s a rare commodity. We don’t have that. At least not right now.

To say Crean is not the long-term answer might be a huge understatement. But it also may be short-sighted. I don’t think he’ll ever be able to have a perennial NC contender. Not in the mold of a Self or a Coach K. But I think he’s a builder. He built our Hoosiers back up from nothing, then had to basically start over. We’ll rise to prominence again very soon. Maybe next year. Maybe the year after. But to me, Crean’s tactics and approach need patience and development, which is something so precious few of us seem to have. Especially when we start talking about hanging in effigy after a bad year.

The question is, do the Hoosier fans have he fortitude to stomach a down year and then get back on board? How many of you are willing to accept that we may have a coach who brings the teams through cycles, with abominations like this year as an unfortunate by-product. Or would you rather risk rolling the dice on another coach or three?

If you’re looking for instant fixes… Good luck. It seldom happens. And when they do, it’s usually someone looking for greener pastures. We’ve been looking for that since 2000. And we still haven’t found it. Maybe CTC’s the answer. Maybe not. But you’re fooling yourselves if you think the next RMK is just waiting in the wings, biding his time, anywhere close to signing on and leading us to “elite” status.

 
#59
Not Husky Tom
Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 12:16 AM EDT

How many Crean cycles did you Punjab see at Marquette. By all accounts there was only one: lukewarm. I say the next Bob Knight out there it’s the AD’s job to find him.

 
#60
Not Husky Tom
Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 12:32 AM EDT

Congratulations to Hoosier legend Steve Alford whose UCLA has taken apart Oregon yesterday and is currently dismantling Stanford. The Bruins are peaking at the right time. They will absolutely crush Arizona. (The freshman Bryce Alford is a hugely entertaining player to watch and makes me feel very proud as an adopted Hoosier.)

 
#61 Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 12:35 AM EDT

Rico, I think you mean “outdo” them…

As always, I appreciate your insight.

 
#62
Punjab
Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 12:55 AM EDT

I see two cycles. Al McGuire, and 27 years later Tom Crean. But I suppose all credit goes to Dwayne Wade and who ever played during the Carter administration. None to anybody else.

As Geoff and many others have pointed out, many legitimate criticisms can be directed towards Crean. But you can’t deny that he has a history of building up flailing programs. So he started over this year. So what. I won’t say the results aren’t a bad sign. But I won’t say it’s the end, either, and it’s time to scrap it all. Sheehey was basically the lone holdover from the previous teams. Otherwise it was Yogi and a bunch of other part time dudes and newcomers. We showed signs of improvement. Then took a steaming dump on it on multiple occasions. If that’s on Crean– and not just youth and team makeup/continuity/character– than it’ll show itself next year. Otherwise, folks should accept the fact that maybe, just maybe, this year was an aberration

If it’s not, then I’ll at least begin to agree that it’s time to move on. But I think it’s way to premature at this point. Not that it’ll dissuade the hungry masses…

 
#63
Harvard for Hillbillies
Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 1:25 AM EDT

Sometimes the greatest fortitude is to make a change. There is nothing of fortitude in the complacency of simply being satisfied in the safety of the moment because things could be worse. Fortitude is the ability to abandoned the comforts of a safe existence for wanting and testing the idea of unstable ground where greatest achievement can be found.

There can be a self-perpetuating trap in clinging to the idea that one man built something from “nothing.” Sometimes it may be far more difficult to build something from everything. I also thinks it’s a huge disservice to the players that came to Indiana when Crean first took over. They were not “nothing.” If anything, they may have been the most of anything we’ll ever have as truly Indiana.

Watched a movie tonight called “My Dinner with Andre.”….Sorta blew my mind. Sorta makes you question if we’re all just building traps of routine existence and giving labels to all things for fear of an inevitable look inside. Did love the song at the end…I’ve heard it somewhere before….I’m missing my Dad.

 
#64
Harvard for Hillbillies
Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 1:31 AM EDT

I also [think]…

 
#65
wiggy72
Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 1:38 AM EDT

I guess if your a fan of how Kentucky conducts biz, then Crean will suffice. A couple of mediocre years followed by a final four or even a NC. The graduation rate hovering around 20 percent. I’m thinking we could even be decent next year, followed by a mass exdous and a couple more mediocre years. I personally don’t care for that kind of program. It would be nice to win a NC every year, but not the Kentucky way. We’ll never see RMK back at assembly hall while Crean is there because he doesn’t respect his Kentucky copied program.

 
#66
Punjab
Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 1:54 AM EDT

Harv, I submit to you the Cleveland teams. Browns and Cavs are perpetually searching. We too suffer the same fate as so countless many other inept squads. Not the least of which are our beloved Cubs. Every year we think this latest change is the one that will bring us back. Bring us glory. It hasn’t. But we still believe. I find it hard to believe that us true fans can lose heart so easily. 100 years and counting, yet we judge a Hoosier team for far less…

 
#67
Not Husky Tom
Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 2:03 AM EDT

Time to sign a 100 years contract extension for Crean. Now that’s a nice constructive idea!

 
#68
Harvard for Hillbillies
Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 3:08 AM EDT

Cubs? Bears last Super Bowl dates the latest Hoosier basketball national championship. Let’s not just piss on the Cubs. 20 years…30 years…50 years…a century? It’s all a long-ass time.

We’re going on seven years with Crean. He didn’t start from nothing. I’m so damn sick of that statement. Davis had to follow the firing of a legendary coach. Sampson had to follow a program that was not on an upward plane and no less stuck in uncertainty a fan base frustrated and divided. Dakich dealt with more of the mess an NCAA investigation than any fire Crean was thrown into.

Crean was allowed to come in as the hero rather than the scapegoat or recipient of hostility and regrets. Quit making the man out to be greater by circumstance. Many coaches would have never clung to the villain chasing and the constant reminders of decimation…To coach at Indiana is of no need pretentiousness. It should be a quiet honor. Roll up the sleeves and live by the undaunted spirit of our fight song. It’s time for accountability to rest on his ability rather than those he can continue to claim “wrecked” an Indiana far stronger than he ever gave fair value.

If someone you believe in and love is terribly wronged or violated, do you chase words to the wind for six years of the “wrecker” villain that still ruins them? Do you never shut up in their ear of how they were decimated and destroyed by lowlife? Or do you believe in the greater good of what they will always be(or what Indiana truly is)? I see Crean as a very negative man from day one. There’s weakness in his tired old words of players not “getting it.”

Cubs fans have never chased the monsters in the mirror of a past. They don’t burn to the ground those that have not ended the droughts. They love their team and they push forward with an everlasting hope. There was nothing healthy or hopeful..or respectful of Indiana in Crean’s messages and judgments.

Give up accentuating the flaws of those that gave you “nothing” to start. Crean had far more than most coaches. He had a fan base that loves the game and embraces the hope that has been built into our bloodlines…Indiana has never been about Fab Five’s.. We’ve always been about the game and the brotherhood that comes when you put on the same jersey. We had one tournament where every David was given the honor to stand fearless on the same court with Goliath. We don’t need decimation speeches. We eat the challenges for breakfast and our heritage in hoops has never been tied to defeatism, or pompous blow…or trophies and banners hoisted for watered down achievements.

I’ve seen enough…I’m wanting vision and answers over crucifixions and tap dancers. My fortitude is a belief in Indiana to know the difference between men of speeches and endless verbal fart from men of competence, instruction, and accountable heart. My faith is not blind nor my eyes simply because a man claims his own reverence for a supreme faith master invalidates truth his own failures.

I don’t think Cubs fans start from that position of arrogance. They are the salt of the earth and they don’t live to highlight the imperfections of fate and fortunes. They forever persevere and forever love the fight and hope that defines the green ivy, the spirit of summer, the tireless cheer, and the beautiful sound of the crack of the bat, more than any gold at the end of a fleeting rainbow. Crean’s whole persona is at polar opposites such optimism and love for the battle and the game you admirably remain humble.

 
#69
Seahawk Tom
Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 6:36 AM EDT

I see that the impostor troll is back….

 
#70
Hoosier1987
Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 6:44 AM EDT

Crean can recruit and get decent players here…he just can’t coach them when they get here.Davis was a great recruitor and we seen his coaching skills.Great asst. coaches do not always make great head coaches.IU had only one chance to do it right after RMK…they had to name Davis interim coach at that point but had to hire Alford at any cost to take over after him.Is Alford a HOF coach?? NO..but we get the golden boy a Knight product a hometown boy National Champion Mr.Basketball gold medal coach back in the Hoosier state.If Alford was named coach after Davis we would already had a Final 4 team a couple times.All people want to do is bash Alford without really looking at what he has done.Won everywhere he has been.Has he made mistakes…yes…every coach in America has.He would be a fool to leave UCLA to come to Indiana even if they wanted him.UCLA will win a NC before IU even makes the Sweet 16 again.

 
#71
Rico Chet
Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 6:45 AM EDT

Yes, my bad Geoff. Now please submit yourself to the advice you just gave me, and all will be happy.

 
#72
Hoosier Clarion
Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 6:54 AM EDT

Punjab, I could not agree more with #62 as it perfectly describes what I felt this season was going to be like(and how the fanbase was going to respond). We won some we shouldn’t and lost some we shouldn’t. We lost 4 1000 point scorers and 2 lottery picks all with tons of experience playing college ball from last years team. Yes this years squad has a lottery pick(he is 18 yrs old)and a 1000 point career scorer(who I don’t see playing NBA)and a bunch of athletic pups with raw BB skills who can’t shoot from outside. How can anyone predict this seasons future different from what we just witnessed? Now, next season I see a much different performance from almost the same bunch of players(with or without NV)and expect Hoosiers will dance into April(with NV).

 
#73 Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 8:02 AM EDT

Here’s what’s great about Clarion… While he may sit squarely on the right side of the teeter-totter of society, he is centered and realistic when it comes to his Hoosiers. He doesn’t let his passion – his long-standing passion – for the school and the sports programs bias him from being fair and balanced. Some of you others need to take a lesson from him. (Yep about to hit “submit”)

 
#74 Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 8:24 AM EDT

Punjab/Harvard – you have brought up a point that caused some introspection vis a vis the Hoosiers. While I believe that being level-headed is inherent to my nature (with the exception of referees) I also think there is one important factor in my patience with the Hoosiers situation – realized success from my other affiliations. By some bizarre set of circumstances my teams have had an amazingly successful last 15 years. I’m not desperate enough for the taste… Even though my passion for the Hoosiers trumps that of any other team by a lot, I’ve realized that the recent success of the Seminoles (National Champs!), the Rangers (back-to-back AL Champs), the Patriots (3-time Super Bowl winners), and Celtics (NBA Champs) has dulled my absolute NEED for the Hoosiers to win NOW! It’s a gift and a curse.

I’m fairly certain that if I was a huge IU FB, Bears, Cubs, Pacers fan my patience would be tested mas mucho. I would probably be devastated by last year’s Sweet 16 instead of temporarily disgusted, but generally optimistic about the future.

I apologize for not being more compassionate to all you fans of perennial losers who, by no fault of your own, have become jaded and angry to the point of irrationality.

 
#75
Punjab
Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 9:17 AM EDT

Two words, Harv: Steve Bartman. The dude had to be escorted by Wrigley Field security hours after the game– put into a taxi with a jacket over his head hiding his identity hours after the incident in which he “interfered” with a foul ball we had at best a 50% chance of catching when we still needed an epic collapse to not make the World Series. Even Cubs staff feared for his safety. The dude has since hidden his identity and has to be ambushed in a secluded parking lot to ask for an interview. Fast forward five years and even the Fox announcers (Tim Buck?) could feel the tension in the stadium as we got swept again in the playoffs. Talk about home field disadvantage. Tell me again about our fellow Cubs fans and not not chasing monsters of the past.

To me, chasing Meyer after the Michigan game validated Crean as a Hoosier. Tasteless or not, it showed me he cared. Looking back, I wish we would’ve seen more of that fire this year.

 
#76
Husky Tom
Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 9:34 AM EDT

Tom Crean should buy a 7-Eleven. That would validate his 2013-2014 conference season.

 
#77
Harvard for Hillbillies
Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 10:17 AM EDT

Don’t get me started on Bartman. Bartman is Crean in a nutshell. Clueless kid that never got the head nod from the captains to be on a team in the pickup games at the park. Strap on the earphones and shut the world out. Be a part of it all without really being a part of anything. Aloof to the point of sabotage. Not capable of accountability or responsibility. Such a sad existence that even decent human beings can’t help but get angry at such fortunate results of a comfortable life when married to such a completely out of touch arrogance in the empty shell of an innate flippant regard for fellow man. Yes, Crean is nearly as pathetic as Steve Bartman. He creates the same bewilderment from peers and puzzled fans that forever wonder how on earth he found a seat where you just wouldn’t think it possible.

 
#78
coachv
Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 10:23 AM EDT

sigh…another year of march sadness.

let me remind everyone that I was the first here to point out that crean was a lousy coach who would never take us to a national championship. too a lot of crap for that so I just want to say I told you so.

to those who like to point out that crean rebuilt the program from nothing, I have to disagree. any coach, no matter how bad, could have rebuilt it halfway, as crean has done. there were no players here. even if you recruit a bunch of mediocre players, you have improved the program from where you started. good players are going to come to iu because it’s not northwestern or penn st.

would also like to dispel the notion that crean develops players. some players are going to get better because they have set that as a goal even if the coach is teaching them nothing. I think hulls and oladipo fit in this category. just because crean tells them to work on their game on their own time doesn’t give him credit for making them better. if you play everyday you will get better. most players at iu you are not getting better and that is the proof in the pudding.

remember crean anointing hollowell as the back-up point guard at the start of the season? he turns the ball over every time he puts it on the floor and shoots as if he gets a point whenever the ball touches the rim. last year he called hanner one of his starters. sheehey and yogi turning the ball over like it’s a greased pig. great judge of talent and developer? don’t make me laugh.

Geoff likes to point out we started 3 freshman most of the year to explain poor play. well if our sophmores had gotten better they wouldn’t be starting.

and can we stop saying we have 5 national championships? correct me if I’m wrong but in 1940 the nit was the tournament for the best teams and and maybe in 1953 as well. we have 5 ncaa’s but only 3 or 4 national championships. I’m afraid we have become ucla, desperately hanging on to our glorious past in the face of reality, that being we have become just another decent program.

 
#79
Rico Chet
Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 12:44 PM EDT

Whoopie coachv. We know you care less for Crean. I think you state that every week. That’s not news. Think of something else to talk about. Do you feel better vindicating yourself now?

 
#80
coachv
Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 2:25 PM EDT

rc

you are one grade A a-hole. why don’t you mindyour own business?

 
#81
Rico Chet
Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 2:47 PM EDT

coachv,

What you post is my business. It’s a public forum, not a private forum. Duh.

 
#82
Hoosier1987
Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 7:36 PM EDT

Steve Alford and UCLA just won the Pac 10 tournament championship!!First time for UCLA since 2008.Steve has coached for 20 years and has won 8 tournament championships and 3 in a row.Won the Big 10 tournament in 2001-2006…but he cannot coach and nobody wants him at IU.I am so proud that the AD and president at IU made the right descision and hired Crean.

 
#83
Fab5
Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 9:48 PM EDT

Alford never wanted to coach at IU, he’s said it numerous times. Move on.

 
#84
Hoosier1987
Sunday, March 16, 2014 - 6:45 AM EDT

Fab5 that is not correct.Alford’s agent contacted Greenspan after Davis was fired and asked for a meeting to discuss Alford coming to IU. Greenspan said he would return the call and never did.IU did not want anyone with RMK ties at IU.Another smart move.

 
#85
Hoosier Clarion
Sunday, March 16, 2014 - 7:45 AM EDT

Hoosier1987, So right, SA also had work going on behind the scenes to talk to IU after Kelvin Sanctions left. I believe to this day if IU waved their arm for him to come to Bloomington he would.

 
#86
Hoosier1987
Sunday, March 16, 2014 - 9:33 AM EDT

I believe he would have come until now.He would be a fool to leave UCLA for Indiana…unless he wants to do it for family reasons.UCLA is much better a basketball program than Indiana right now.If he wins at UCLA he will be king and will get anything he wants.If the idiots that run Indiana would have hired him after Davis then Indiana would have never gotten into the basement that they are in now.He might have had a season or two of average teams…18-20 wins those 2 first years…then we would have been a force in both the conference and in the nation.Steve would have came to Indiana with open arms…RMK did not want him to and even told him not to accept the job if it was offered to him.But Steve would have came if offered.He will never come to Indiana now and I don’t blame him.UCLA will win big for the next 15 years with at least 2-3 Final 4….Indiana will be stuck at 16-20 wins a year and a bubble team for many years to come without a chance of a Final 4….all because of Glass and all the idiots that run the program.Glass always talks of how much he respects RMK…then hire Steve and make everyone happy.I have said since 2003 that Steve should be the coach here and nobody…not one has ever agreed.

 
#87
Fab5
Sunday, March 16, 2014 - 10:03 AM EDT

Having your agent call an AD about making you the next coach is not being interested. Being interested and wanting a job means you put your pride on the line and you stand in line publicly and interview like everyone else, it means you aren’t afraid to publicly say “yes I want the job and I’ll be sad if I don’t get it.” Steve never said one bit of that, you claim he begged and pleaded and IU cold shouldered him, that’s never happened, he’s a prideful and cocky dude, he never wanted to grovel at the IU table, I don’t blame him. He also isn’t any better at coaching than Crean. Wait til he has his own recruits at UCLA instead of Howland’s.
Alford and his family did something many Hoosier families have done…they left your precious state and realized life wasn’t so bad, they are in no hurry to return and never were. Move on.

 
#88
Hoosier Clarion
Sunday, March 16, 2014 - 10:48 AM EDT

Fab5 you must be running a fever.

 


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